Book Chat
Stealing The General:
The Great Locomotive Chase and The First Medal of Honor
Russell Bonds

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 01/19/08 and covered Chapters 1 & 2

1/19/2008 9:01 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the first installment of our book chat on Russell Bonds's book Stealing The General: The Great Locomotive Chase and the First Medal of Honor. A reminder, please refrain from using the private message feature while the chat is going on.

1/19/2008 9:02 pm (et) bluelady: I have never been to Atlanta and am surprised that they would place a marker for a union hero as it were.

1/19/2008 9:03 pm (et) Basecat: As some know, I was lucky to have Russ speak recently at the CWRT of NY. As we get into the preface of the book, just wanted to add that Russ has been interested in this story from the Civil War since he was a kid. He grew up in the area where the chase ended, and the book has been a culmination of many years of research.

1/19/2008 9:03 pm (et) bluelady: I suppose I shouldn't say hero but spy.

1/19/2008 9:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Atlanta has a large northern population now .

1/19/2008 9:04 pm (et) bluelady: Beats the "year" our last author spent with his characters.

1/19/2008 9:04 pm (et) Babs: Maybe it's not for a hero, but the place where scoundrels were done in.

1/19/2008 9:04 pm (et) bluelady: Well put babs.

1/19/2008 9:04 pm (et) Babs: Blue. Yes! and there are footnotes.

1/19/2008 9:05 pm (et) bluelady: But the state of GA put it up in 1982.

1/19/2008 9:05 pm (et) bluelady: OMG!!! lol

1/19/2008 9:06 pm (et) Babs: It is quite readable except as Basecat mentioned the print is fine for these bespeckled old eyes.

1/19/2008 9:06 pm (et) bluelady: I don't want to get ahead of the game here but I did not know the circumstances of his hanging before this...botched to say the least.

1/19/2008 9:06 pm (et) Susansweet: maybe it is my bifocals but I didn't have a problem with the type.

1/19/2008 9:06 pm (et) Basecat: I don't wear glasses, but the print is way too small.

1/19/2008 9:07 pm (et) Babs: Blue, It was in the intro, so fair game.

1/19/2008 9:07 pm (et) bluelady: I had to be sure I was in good light to see it...maybe his publisher didn't want a 500 page book and used a smaller font.

1/19/2008 9:08 pm (et) bluelady: Babs I was referring to the others...

1/19/2008 9:09 pm (et) mobile_96: No problem with print, and I use trifocals.

1/19/2008 9:09 pm (et) bluelady: It is also easy for me to see how this story could get "mauled and twisted"

1/19/2008 9:10 pm (et) Babs: I am pleased to see maps. You know how whiney I get if there are no maps.

1/19/2008 9:10 pm (et) bluelady: Many survivors looking for their place...their legacy...even the preacher could get it wrong for those reasons.

1/19/2008 9:10 pm (et) Basecat: Clear maps as well Babs. :) That helps me immensely as well.

1/19/2008 9:10 pm (et) bluelady: And the 2 movies did not help either.

1/19/2008 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: I like the pictures on all the pages too instead of in one place in the middle.

1/19/2008 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: As mentioned last night, the book will be made into a movie by Paramount Pictures in the near future.

1/19/2008 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: My interest started with the Fess Parker movie as a kid.

1/19/2008 9:12 pm (et) Babs: The book said Andrews could sing, so maybe Fess Parker was the right one for the role.

1/19/2008 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: I have traveled the route from Chattanooga to Atlanta , seen the two engines .

1/19/2008 9:12 pm (et) bluelady: I am glad there is finally someone who was looking at the big picture in regards to the raid and the war.

1/19/2008 9:13 pm (et) bluelady: Basecat..that one I WILL go to the theatre to see for sure!

1/19/2008 9:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Blue, agree, more info on what happened on the side,

1/19/2008 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: Too bad we are so far apart would be a great movie to see altogether .

1/19/2008 9:13 pm (et) Babs: It is interesting to see it put in the big picture and not just a novelty sidebar.

1/19/2008 9:13 pm (et) bluelady: I made it to Kennesaw about 2 years ago with CWgal and Slnj

1/19/2008 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: That is a great museum.

1/19/2008 9:14 pm (et) bluelady: mobile, especially in East Tenn.. I did not know Leadbetter was that bad on them...Now I understand Lincoln angst for the region.

1/19/2008 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: Well let's delve into Chapter 1. I especially like the quotes from the Emerson Lecture on what RRs would mean to the country.

1/19/2008 9:15 pm (et) Susansweet: The quotes at the beginning of the book are good too.

1/19/2008 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: While he got some things right, he was way off that RRs would draw the country together in that turbulent time.

1/19/2008 9:16 pm (et) bluelady: Or maybe he was hoping they would. It is easy to see how he could think that way...but then he thought as a Northerner.

1/19/2008 9:17 pm (et) bluelady: Thought as a northerner.

1/19/2008 9:17 pm (et) Babs: He thought the RR would do away with all the diversity. Others have thought that about the interstates and TV, but you say soda and Treefrog and I say pop.

1/19/2008 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: Especially since most of the RRs were in the North.

1/19/2008 9:18 pm (et) bluelady: Ah but we agree as to what it is..soda pop! ;)

1/19/2008 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: The Map of the Southern Railroads was really helpful.

1/19/2008 9:19 pm (et) bluelady: and they say pop here in north central PA as well.

1/19/2008 9:19 pm (et) mobile_96: Pop .

1/19/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Coke in California.

1/19/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Diet soda.

1/19/2008 9:20 pm (et) Babs: I did not see it mentioned, but am I correct that the rail gauge was not standardized until the CW?

1/19/2008 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: I like how he maps out the lay of the major RR's in the region...very easy to see why Andrews would think of taking Chattanooga via rail from GA.

1/19/2008 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Susan, and if you look at that map, you can tell that yet another uphill battle in terms of the South trying to gain their independence.

1/19/2008 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: Correct Babs.

1/19/2008 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...IIRC, in the North it was, but not in the south.

1/19/2008 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: That is correct Babs and still another reason the south had transportation troubles.

1/19/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Yep. Reading about how the troops got from one place to another on the trains was always amazing.

1/19/2008 9:21 pm (et) bluelady: And base is right there as well.

1/19/2008 9:22 pm (et) bluelady: Not only that...the army didn't have the total right to take over a train for its use in the south...a certain amount of red tape was necessary.

1/19/2008 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought there were still areas where trains had to be changed, and it was Abe who was asked to pick a standard gauge.

1/19/2008 9:22 pm (et) bluelady: But in the north...government could do it and did.

1/19/2008 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: It's an interesting chapter as well, as it shows just how defiant those in East TN were. And how, for the most part they were left to fend for themselves.

1/19/2008 9:23 pm (et) Babs: I had not heard about the previous coordinated bridge burnings. I thought that was interesting.

1/19/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...South just did not have the manufacturing capabilities to make the change on every RR.

1/19/2008 9:23 pm (et) bluelady: All because of prickly Generals and their territorial pride.

1/19/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Babs, and a major mistake by George Thomas, but not supporting those who did burn the bridges by providing military support.

1/19/2008 9:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, still talking about the north not being all one gauge.

1/19/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: And he was for it in the beginning..;)

1/19/2008 9:24 pm (et) bluelady: Babs they were not very well coordinated...the plan was but as i said about prickly Generals and their pride.

1/19/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: My bad Mobile...

1/19/2008 9:25 pm (et) Babs: Blue, but many were burned on the same night so there must have been some planning.

1/19/2008 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: In a way, I find it interesting, as the South railed about Lincoln's use of Habeas Corpus in Maryland at the start of the war, and yet here in East TN, they did much the same thing, but in an even more brutal way.

1/19/2008 9:26 pm (et) bluelady: That part was carried was the military support that wasn't.

1/19/2008 9:26 pm (et) mobile_96: The civilians did their part of the plan pretty well, it was the military that failed.

1/19/2008 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...Planned well, with the thought that Union soldiers would come from Kentucky to back them Mobile just posted.:)

1/19/2008 9:27 pm (et) bluelady: It reminds me of what the Romans did to those they crucified...literally left them hanging.

1/19/2008 9:27 pm (et) Susansweet: They got left with no military backup.

1/19/2008 9:28 pm (et) Babs: Until the smell got to be too much.

1/19/2008 9:28 pm (et) Basecat: An aside, now you know why Judah Benjamin fled to Europe after the war, because of his order sent to Leadbetter out there.

1/19/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Would be a good reason to flee for sure.

1/19/2008 9:28 pm (et) Basecat: He was afraid he would suffer the same fate as those he condemned out there.

1/19/2008 9:29 pm (et) bluelady: Martial law to the nth degree...but I can imagine it being difficult to enforce with all the hills and valleys there...drove by there several times in the past...very rough country.

1/19/2008 9:29 pm (et) mobile_96: Interesting, thought it was just because he was afraid of being tried for treason.

1/19/2008 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: Thoughts on Leadbetter?

1/19/2008 9:29 pm (et) bluelady: He was a mean old Cuss?

1/19/2008 9:29 pm (et) TreeFrog: See your still talking about East Tennessee. Have a question on that when we get time (don't know the etiquette here, so I don't want to just jump in)

1/19/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Read an article a while ago, that his order out there was part of the charges he thought he would face.

1/19/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Tree..ask away.

1/19/2008 9:30 pm (et) mobile_96: Learn something new everyday.

1/19/2008 9:30 pm (et) bluelady: And a NORTHERNER at that!

1/19/2008 9:31 pm (et) Basecat: No kidding Blue, and it's not like he lived down south for a long time...

1/19/2008 9:31 pm (et) TreeFrog: I thought I read it in this book, but going back through it I couldn't find it again. I remember reading somewhere about the people of East Tennessee threatening to secede from Tennessee, much the same way W. Virginia did. Anyone have more info on that?

1/19/2008 9:32 pm (et) bluelady: Described as "the worst man, the greatest coward, and the blackest-hearted villain that ever made a track in East Tennessee."

1/19/2008 9:32 pm (et) bluelady: That was mentioned in here tree...and it was the efforts of Leadbetter that prevented that IMHO.

1/19/2008 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: Tree...Abe surely wanted them to do so, but there was no Union soldiers around to help them make that choice at this time of the war. Western Virginia Campaign in 1861 secured that area much easier, than what it would in East TN.

1/19/2008 9:33 pm (et) bluelady: And what base said.

1/19/2008 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: Terrain in that part of TN sucks...I just drove thru it last June, and it would not have been easy to secure that area.

1/19/2008 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Too many hollers

1/19/2008 9:34 pm (et) Basecat: Militarily speaking, I should add. :)

1/19/2008 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Roads are windy now , imagine how they were back then.

1/19/2008 9:34 pm (et) bluelady: Not at all and could you imagine the flooding?  That area was a TVA and CCC during the depression IIRC.

1/19/2008 9:35 pm (et) Basecat: Susan, Once you get past Knoxville, it levels out.

1/19/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Right.

1/19/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Past Knoxville going west? Yes.

1/19/2008 9:36 pm (et) bluelady: But go south it is just as rough all the way to Chattanooga.

1/19/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: Right.

1/19/2008 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: But that part from the Virginia border to west of Knoxville is just the worst type of ground to have a campaign. That said, no excuse that Thomas or Buell did not at least try.

1/19/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: I have driven all over that area ,

1/19/2008 9:37 pm (et) bluelady: Right Base b/c Jackson did it in VA in the same type of ground.

1/19/2008 9:38 pm (et) TreeFrog: I found it amusing how the Confederates were concerned about "Civil War" and the "rebels" and "traitors" in E. Tennessee

1/19/2008 9:38 pm (et) bluelady: And Buell the martinet...was just as slow as his buddy little Mac.

1/19/2008 9:38 pm (et) Basecat: General Buell, I knew Stonewall Jackson, and you are no Stonewall Jackson..:)

1/19/2008 9:38 pm (et) bluelady: lol

1/19/2008 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Tree, same here, first time I've seen it stated that way.

1/19/2008 9:39 pm (et) bluelady: Exactally tree...getting a taste of their own medicine.

1/19/2008 9:39 pm (et) Basecat: Tree...Good pickup, as it goes against what secession meant to them.

1/19/2008 9:39 pm (et) Babs: Tree, I thought that was ironic too.

1/19/2008 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: Now what did Buell like better about Nashville that what Lincoln was promoting..the fact he didn't want a civilian telling him where to go?

1/19/2008 9:42 pm (et) TreeFrog: Does anyone know the overall effect of the hangings and other reprisals in East Tennessee? On Pg 14 it quotes Leadbetter saying "The execution of bridge-burners is producing the happiest effect. Insurgents will continue for yet a while in the mountains, but I trust that we have secured the outward obedience of the people."

1/19/2008 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: Blue, when Little Mac who was the king of the slows almost had to beg for Buell to move, is ironic as well. If you read the notes in the back of the book, Sherman called Buell our finest soldier. Go figure.:)

1/19/2008 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: Blue..It was easier...plain and simple.

1/19/2008 9:43 pm (et) bluelady: Or Tree I think it led to a very stiff uneasiness to the residents of the area.

1/19/2008 9:43 pm (et) bluelady: OK I will buy that...easier that is.

1/19/2008 9:43 pm (et) Basecat: Tree...for most of the war that area was much akin to what happened in the mountains of NC, and further west in MO. and KS.

1/19/2008 9:44 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...what was the book you read on East TN in the's last name was Fisher??

1/19/2008 9:44 pm (et) bluelady: Well Buell did help save Sherman's hide at Shiloh...I wonder what he thought of him later?

1/19/2008 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: More guerilla actions also.

1/19/2008 9:45 pm (et) TreeFrog: Blue, that's what I was thinking. In my mind I'm trying to compare it to the Insurgency in Iraq.

1/19/2008 9:45 pm (et) mobile_96: War at Every Door-Partisan Politics & Guerrilla Violence in East Tennessee-1860-1869

1/19/2008 9:45 pm (et) bluelady: But because it was on a smaller scale not too much was made of it.

1/19/2008 9:45 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Sherman quote came before Shiloh, based on Buell's record in the Mexican War. Just my opinion, Buell changed after he was seriously wounded during the fighting at Chapultapec....He lost his nerve.

1/19/2008 9:45 pm (et) mobile_96: Noel C. Fisher.

1/19/2008 9:45 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks Mobile.

1/19/2008 9:46 pm (et) TreeFrog: Although granted they are two very different types of war.

1/19/2008 9:46 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe small, but still vicious for those affected.

1/19/2008 9:46 pm (et) bluelady: I think there could be a good comparison E TN you couldn't tell who the enemy was and I bet in Baghdad it was the same.

1/19/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: Notice folks...war supposedly ended in 1865...check out the title of Fisher's book, and you can imagine just how bad it was out there.

1/19/2008 9:46 pm (et) bluelady: Amen mobile.

1/19/2008 9:47 pm (et) TreeFrog: Regarding Buell, it seemed to me that he was insubordinate to an almost criminal point.

1/19/2008 9:48 pm (et) mobile_96: Another book is Mountain Rebels-East Tennessee Confederates and the Civil War, 1860-1870, W. Todd Groce.

1/19/2008 9:48 pm (et) bluelady: Many of them were Tree..look at Polk on the reb side.

1/19/2008 9:48 pm (et) mobile_96: Will agree with that Tree.

1/19/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: Tree...and also shows how much patience Lincoln had. You read Buell's messages back to DC at that time, Abe knew he could not replace him them , but eventually did before the year was out.

1/19/2008 9:49 pm (et) bluelady: Good point there Base.

1/19/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: BTW...for those interested....Stephen Engle's bio. on Buell is very well done. Expensive book though.

1/19/2008 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore thoughts or questions on Chapter 1?

1/19/2008 9:50 pm (et) bluelady: Mitchel was quite happy when he was cut loose for sure...he was one who wanted to move.

1/19/2008 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: Blue, tend to think all under Buell were not happy sitting around in that weather and doing nothing.

1/19/2008 9:52 pm (et) bluelady: I can think the soldiers were thinking let me go home and wait...for as far as they got.

1/19/2008 9:54 pm (et) Basecat: Will just add one more point on chapter 1...Consider the actions of Buell and Thomas, and their refusal to move. At that time of the Civil War, they outnumbered the southern soldiers by a wide margin. Their laziness allowed the south time to get their shoes on straight, and eventually build a rather substantial army out that way.

1/19/2008 9:55 pm (et) TreeFrog: If the Union Army had moved earlier, while the bridge burnings were going on, would it make a major difference? Or would it have led to extra deaths for little gain?

1/19/2008 9:55 pm (et) Basecat: Lets move on to Chapter 2.

1/19/2008 9:55 pm (et) bluelady: Not just that way but all over.

1/19/2008 9:56 pm (et) Basecat: Tree...Not saying it would have ended the war, but do believe it would have shortened it out there, IMHO.

1/19/2008 9:56 pm (et) bluelady: I appreciated reading more on Mitchel. Anything I read on the raid before would just throw in a short bio and then leave him behind.

1/19/2008 9:57 pm (et) Basecat: Blue, I really did not know much about him, and like you I was glad to read more about him than the usual paragraph blurb.

1/19/2008 9:58 pm (et) bluelady: It could have shortened it because of would cut the rest of the confederacy again just as gaining control of the Mississippi did.

1/19/2008 9:59 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe Knoxville would have fallen sooner.

1/19/2008 9:59 pm (et) bluelady: It makes it clearer to see how the guy operated to allow a kind of covert action to take place using some of his soldiers. A more cautious General most likely would not have given it a thought

1/19/2008 10:00 pm (et) bluelady: Or not have agreed to the support necessary.

1/19/2008 10:01 pm (et) bluelady: Old Stars was an interesting nickname...He was an Astronomer, professor and a lawyer...a genius.

1/19/2008 10:01 pm (et) bluelady: It was said that the name referred to how he thought of himself as well.

1/19/2008 10:01 pm (et) bluelady: And loaded with ambition.

1/19/2008 10:02 pm (et) bluelady: Even declined a colonelcy to appeal for a generalship from the president.

1/19/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Think it is interesting that the meeting between Mitchel and Andrews is not recorded what was said as neither lived long enough after to write down their memories.

1/19/2008 10:03 pm (et) Basecat: "I am no office seeker, but a plain patriot desirous to do my duty".

1/19/2008 10:03 pm (et) bluelady: And he knew the railroad business...maybe another reason he liked Andrews idea.

1/19/2008 10:05 pm (et) bluelady: When he went about repairing the bridges...he worked right along side giving orders...not from afar.

1/19/2008 10:06 pm (et) bluelady: And got the job done quickly...a job Buell said was impossible.

1/19/2008 10:06 pm (et) mobile_96: Too bad he wasn't around longer, Might have been a very effective officer.

1/19/2008 10:07 pm (et) bluelady: Makes me wonder why he was transferred to the coast.

1/19/2008 10:07 pm (et) mobile_96: Buell??

1/19/2008 10:08 pm (et) bluelady: No least I think that is where he was.

1/19/2008 10:09 pm (et) mobile_96: I mean, maybe because of Buell.

1/19/2008 10:10 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Think the same thing...he showed up Buell.

1/19/2008 10:11 pm (et) bluelady: That question actually will be answered I looked ahead.

1/19/2008 10:11 pm (et) mobile_96: It happened a lot in that 4 years.

1/19/2008 10:11 pm (et) bluelady: And we will be surprised.

1/19/2008 10:12 pm (et) bluelady: there is an interesting character.

1/19/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: Just looked it up in Generals in blue but if it is part of our book won't post it.

1/19/2008 10:12 pm (et) mobile_96: Cheater.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) bluelady: Not much was known about him then or even now.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: Who me?

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) bluelady: Well mobile, this is the second time through this book for me.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) bluelady: No me.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: I thought that was so interesting that nothing was known about him til a certain age and even then little was known.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Blue.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: Plus you have to keep in mind, Generals like Buell, McClellan were democrats, and yet another reason why the war lasted as long as it did, IMHO, as you had to play the politics game in DC. Notice when Abe got more power in his first administration, he got rid of those who seemed to not wish to "fight" the war.

1/19/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh good.  Glad it wasn't me.

1/19/2008 10:14 pm (et) bluelady: Where he was born is now part of West VA

1/19/2008 10:15 pm (et) bluelady: Most of the generals were democrats...many were conservative and back then the democrats were the conservative party.

1/19/2008 10:15 pm (et) mobile_96: After he found out Who would Fight.

1/19/2008 10:15 pm (et) Susansweet: Amazing he just walked up the road into the town of Flemingsburg and asked for a job.

1/19/2008 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: Exactly Mobile.

1/19/2008 10:15 pm (et) bluelady: Kind of funny to say that...conservative democrat.

1/19/2008 10:16 pm (et) Basecat: Andrews to me is a shady character, and if I was in charge, not one I would pick for the raid.

1/19/2008 10:16 pm (et) mobile_96: He was pretty strange.

1/19/2008 10:16 pm (et) Basecat: I would not have trusted him.

1/19/2008 10:16 pm (et) bluelady: And he could sing.

1/19/2008 10:17 pm (et) bluelady: But more the reason he was just the man...I think he was a double agent...or at least an agent to the highest bidder as they said in the chapter.

1/19/2008 10:17 pm (et) Basecat: Hard for me to say that now, as it cost him his life, but you read about Andrews and his "exploits" early in the war, more concerned about profiting from the situation than what he eventually did.

1/19/2008 10:18 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...It's a good point, he played on on both sides of the fence, but in the end, the fence wins...IMHO.:)

1/19/2008 10:19 pm (et) mobile_96: And just the type of man that was needed at that time, expendable.

1/19/2008 10:19 pm (et) bluelady: But this was one question I had for Russell...was this his speculation or is there documentation that he was a profiteer?

1/19/2008 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96: Will Russell be with us next week?

1/19/2008 10:20 pm (et) Basecat: I can answer that, as he mentioned that during his talk in NYC...Part speculation, but also based on the fact that he was known to both sides.

1/19/2008 10:20 pm (et) Basecat: Have no clue...Have not heard from him yet.

1/19/2008 10:20 pm (et) bluelady: The thing that causes me to ask that...if he was indeed important to the southern cause and their friend...wouldn't some politicking have occurred to save him from the hangman?

1/19/2008 10:22 pm (et) Basecat: Blue, but the raid doomed him to having friends in the South to support him. He finally chose a side, and they reacted to it as they did.

1/19/2008 10:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Don't think they expected him to be a double agent, if indeed he was.

1/19/2008 10:22 pm (et) Susansweet: You would think if he was important to south they would have done things differently than hang him.

1/19/2008 10:22 pm (et) bluelady: Now I read an account somewhere that stated he was trying to "get in nice" with the confederates so he could do a raid like this and gain information at the same if his side was the union side all along.

1/19/2008 10:23 pm (et) Susansweet: That to me is the way I have always read it .

1/19/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: According to Russ...he played both sides for his gain...

1/19/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: Before the raid of course.

1/19/2008 10:24 pm (et) mobile_96: But both sides didn't know, before the raid, he was playing both sides.

1/19/2008 10:24 pm (et) bluelady: And that is my did he know that? from documentation?

1/19/2008 10:24 pm (et) Susansweet: Good question Blue.

1/19/2008 10:25 pm (et) bluelady: Or was it like I stated...done yes to gain money but also information for a bigger event later?

1/19/2008 10:25 pm (et) Basecat: As mentioned in the book, Andrews was supposed to be paid handsomely from the raid...some reports say $20,000 some say $50,000 in gold.

1/19/2008 10:26 pm (et) Basecat: My opinion, he jumped at the chance to better himself money wise.

1/19/2008 10:26 pm (et) bluelady: I did see that Basecat...unless he told the was that known if he and Mitchel did not record the "deal"?

1/19/2008 10:27 pm (et) bluelady: He did get some money up front to help finance the raiders as they went south.

1/19/2008 10:27 pm (et) Basecat: And there in lies the problem as mentioned earlier, they both died soon after.

1/19/2008 10:28 pm (et) bluelady: I wonder if that was said by someone trying to place the raid as an unimportant sideshow.

1/19/2008 10:29 pm (et) bluelady: As Buell did later.

1/19/2008 10:29 pm (et) bluelady: Oops ...sorry.

1/19/2008 10:30 pm (et) Basecat: :) For what it is worth, had Buell had the idea, it would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread.

1/19/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet: And the quotes about the money are by people long after the war , the footnote says Pittinger says nothing was said to the raiders about Andrews getting money .

1/19/2008 10:31 pm (et) bluelady: And it was the quote from Fuller that helped Bonds come to his conclusion.

1/19/2008 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: Especially if it worked.

1/19/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: hmmm

1/19/2008 10:32 pm (et) bluelady: So I am ready to come to the conclusion that we can't really know if it was about money or truly union that was Andrews motive.

1/19/2008 10:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Blue where is the discussion about Fuller? I want to mark it in book.

1/19/2008 10:33 pm (et) bluelady: It starts on the bottom of pg 32 and continues on 33.

1/19/2008 10:34 pm (et) bluelady: And in the middle of that paragraph Bonds admits to speculation.

1/19/2008 10:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Thanks, I misread that section.

1/19/2008 10:34 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Yep, but I tend to agree with Russ's thoughts on it.

1/19/2008 10:36 pm (et) bluelady: And I am dubious on the Knight confirmation on that. He especially along with Pittenger were the 2 that gained a lot of fame on the lecture and book circuit later .

1/19/2008 10:37 pm (et) Susansweet: I was going to say how reliable was Knight confirming the business of spying .

1/19/2008 10:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Knight survived , Andrews didn't.

1/19/2008 10:37 pm (et) bluelady: and Knight had a way of trying to downgrade the participation of others...even the "leader".

1/19/2008 10:37 pm (et) Basecat: Blue, some things never change, and is the American way...Cash in on your 15 minutes of fame.

1/19/2008 10:38 pm (et) bluelady: lol amen Base amen.

1/19/2008 10:38 pm (et) Basecat: On that note, as we have gone beyond 90 minutes of discussion...any other comments?

1/19/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: Make it into 16 minutes of fame.

1/19/2008 10:39 pm (et) Basecat: Susan..:)

1/19/2008 10:39 pm (et) Susansweet: I liked the list of rewards of the raid if it was successful.

1/19/2008 10:39 pm (et) bluelady: Not to mention that statement put there by Russell could have been taken out of context...because there is no doubt he was a double spy. I just argue we have no way of knowing what Andres felt about it.

1/19/2008 10:39 pm (et) Susansweet: And I found it interesting how they had to get their own civies to wear.

1/19/2008 10:40 pm (et) bluelady: Especially since he tried it once before.

1/19/2008 10:40 pm (et) bluelady: And interesting to how they were picked for the affair.

1/19/2008 10:40 pm (et) Basecat: And wearing civilian clothes in an operation like this, and you get caught, automatic death sentence.

1/19/2008 10:40 pm (et) Susansweet: How they didn't all know each other but were chosen from different companies.

1/19/2008 10:40 pm (et) mobile_96: I was surprised they changed clothes before leaving, instead of on the road elsewhere.

1/19/2008 10:41 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Same here.

1/19/2008 10:41 pm (et) bluelady: And at least when they first met up with him they were given an out there as well.

1/19/2008 10:41 pm (et) Basecat: I would have taken the out..:)

1/19/2008 10:42 pm (et) bluelady: The ones who went with him on the first run would not go with him again.

1/19/2008 10:42 pm (et) Basecat: LOL..Yeah, I would make a fine soldier..:) Tree is no doubt shaking his head..:)

1/19/2008 10:43 pm (et) bluelady: skulker you.

1/19/2008 10:43 pm (et) Basecat: You know what it reminds me of?? Those who volunteered to serve on the Hunley.

1/19/2008 10:43 pm (et) Susansweet: Right Base and the Men of the Alamo who when given a chance to leave didn't take it.

1/19/2008 10:43 pm (et) bluelady: You got that least these guys had a chance to return.

1/19/2008 10:44 pm (et) Susansweet: Yea , many of them did return home.

1/19/2008 10:44 pm (et) bluelady: The men were all taken from one brigade...the 2nd, 21st and 33rd Ohio regiments of Sill's brigade.

1/19/2008 10:45 pm (et) Susansweet: Blue did you see the graves in Chattanooga?

1/19/2008 10:45 pm (et) bluelady: Yes and I have pictures of them

1/19/2008 10:45 pm (et) Susansweet: Me too.

1/19/2008 10:46 pm (et) bluelady: I first saw them at our chich chat muster in 01.

1/19/2008 10:46 pm (et) Basecat: Great chat all, and I thank you for participating. My apologies for the date change at the last minute, but am happy to see most got the news of the change. Book Chat will reconvene on Sunday, January 27, 2008 at 9 PM EST. Homework will be Chapters 3 and 4. Hope all are enjoying reading the book, and while I was not part of the last chat, I can see you are.:)

1/19/2008 10:47 pm (et) bluelady: Can't wait until next week! :) chapters 3 and 4.

1/19/2008 10:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Me either. I enjoy these discussions.

1/19/2008 10:47 pm (et) bluelady: Especially on a better written book!

1/19/2008 10:47 pm (et) mobile_96: As I do.

1/19/2008 10:48 pm (et) Susansweet: Always helps to have someone else point out what is important to them in a book.

1/19/2008 10:48 pm (et) Basecat: As mentioned earlier...Part 3 date will be on Saturday due to the Super Bowl. After that I see no changes, and chats will continue on Sunday evenings.