"The Devil Knows How to Ride:
The True Story of William Clarke Quantrill and His Confederate Raiders"
This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 9/12/05 and covered Chapters 1,2,& 3
9/12/2005 9:05 pm (et) ks: Tonight we begin with the first 3 chapters of Edward E. Leslie’s book on William Clarke Quantrill. We’ll proceed with the “chapter by chapter” format we used last night with the Pfanz book. That’s one way to try to bring some order to the discussion. But *before* we get into Chapter One, I think Leslie’s introduction is worth mentioning. :-)9/12/2005 9:05 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...."Slickers"...being the cane poles that were debarked and used to whoop your argumentive neighbor...
9/12/2005 9:05 pm (et) archieclement: I guess the only reason for my previous impression was Lyon and Dodge, but they were just 2 of many stationed there9/12/2005 9:06 pm (et) ks: We're into the Book Chat time now. :) Please give me a few...
9/12/2005 9:06 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...pretty strange...head in the refrig...9/12/2005 9:06 pm (et) ks: The Introduction acquaints us with how Leslie began the 6 year journey of visiting archives and battlefields in 7 states and the District of Columbia in order to write this bio. He tells us that he had little knowledge of William Clarke Quantrill until he himself moved 30 miles from Q’s (I like that ->> “Q’s”) hometown of Dover, Ohio and began to hear the stories about the monstrous crimes committed by…his own NEIGHBOR? Anyway…stories which led to his discovery of many tales concerning one whom some called” the bloodiest man in the annals of America”.
9/12/2005 9:06 pm (et) Babs: How could you NOT mention that intro? It was an attention grabber.9/12/2005 9:06 pm (et) bluelady: absolutely I never did recall the name Huberty until I read the rest of the intro! EOW!
9/12/2005 9:06 pm (et) ks: Some see Q as one of the “most hated men in the Civil War”. Other opinions depart from the murdering psychopath image and envision him as more of a Civil War Robin Hood. In the coming weeks of this discussion we’ll see Leslie’s unfolding portrayal of the man and see what “face” we each put on the man that was William Clarke Quantrill.9/12/2005 9:07 pm (et) ks: Now forgive me this diversion and, if you wish, sneak a peak into that “wheezing refrigerator” at the Dover Historical Society. Back there behind the deviled eggs and tuna fish sandwiches, feel free to take a look (as did the author) at the infamous wax model (based upon Quantrill’s skull) constructed by the Kent State University anthropology department… The Devil's Face That’s http://bartonpara.com/civilwar/quantril.jpg for the copy/paste crowd. ;)
9/12/2005 9:07 pm (et) Basecat: Babs and ks...If me.. Not sure I would make known that I was friends with a nutcase such as that, but that's just me..:)9/12/2005 9:07 pm (et) bluelady: and opening that refrigerator to see that face!!! man
9/12/2005 9:08 pm (et) Basecat: You can also sneak ahead in the book, and see a photo of the head in the Fridge...9/12/2005 9:08 pm (et) ks: In living COLOR??? ;)
9/12/2005 9:08 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...thats awsome isn't it...?9/12/2005 9:08 pm (et) bluelady: but it does grab the attention as to we really don't know our neighbors and to many Q and brown could have been that neighbor to shoot the breeze.. others call them nut cases
9/12/2005 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: ks..No...Black and white...:)9/12/2005 9:09 pm (et) ks: Totally, Captain. ;)
9/12/2005 9:09 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ..lol...9/12/2005 9:10 pm (et) ks:
”The Devil Knows How to Ride: The True Story of William Clarke Quantrill and His Confederate Raiders”, Chapter One.
”War to the Knife!” The War over Kansas Territory, 1854 – 1861…wherein Leslie lays out for our study the KANSAS situation, the environment into which Q “stumbles” in 1860.
9/12/2005 9:10 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie writes "not a psychoanalytical biography" and that there is "little material that reveal the inner workings of his mind," and then Leslie proceeds to psychoanalyze Quantrill.9/12/2005 9:10 pm (et) ks: It does seem that way so far, doesn't it AHG?
9/12/2005 9:11 pm (et) amhistoryguy: His "Acknowledgements indicate Leslie did a HUGE amount of research - but his "notes" for the book suck9/12/2005 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG...Had a problem with that while I was reading here today as well. To me, hard to not psychoanalyze Quantrill. Mostly, I just hope he does a fine job separating the myths from reality.
9/12/2005 9:11 pm (et) ks: Okay...AHG's comments will lead me to stray from my notes and share some comments from Harry...9/12/2005 9:12 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...I think he does...
9/12/2005 9:12 pm (et) ks: posts for Harry:9/12/2005 9:12 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I agree with you Base, but then why come out an say he is not going to do so?
Leslie seems to be more than willing to discount negative accounts of Quantrill’s behavior before becoming a guerilla. In the main, he seems to trace them to sour-grapes on the part of the man Quantrill’s father tried to kill. That’s all well and good, but sometimes I think he goes a bit too far. After Quantrill went to Kansas with the same fella whom his old man tried to whack, and before he went to Utah, for example, Leslie discounts the story of Quantrill stealing from the folks he lived with and being driven from them. Not long after that, he signs on as a teamster with the army under an assumed name – and Leslie says he can’t figure out why he would do that. Well, if the story about him were true, it would go a long way in explaining the assumed name. And the cryptic references in Quantrill’s letters home about troubles he has had that he doesn’t want to discuss but that were all his fault seem to jive with stories of bad behavior.
9/12/2005 9:12 pm (et) ks: More for Harry:9/12/2005 9:13 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG...Have no clue...and agree with you on the notes.. Hate when notes are done that way.
I’m finding the style of footnoting (if you can call it that) irksome. Obviously, this fella (Leslie) is neither a historian (that’s right, A historian) nor is he familiar with how historical writings should be footnoted. On the other hand, it makes for faster reading.
9/12/2005 9:14 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslies idea of "Notes" is to say, "The first six paragraphs are based on my research" he actually says this in his Notes. It's laughable9/12/2005 9:14 pm (et) archieclement: do you feel Leslie is going as far as Connelly did ks?
9/12/2005 9:15 pm (et) ks: Don't disagree with you. :) And now could we focus comments on Chapter One? Haven't read Connelly, arch. Not yet....9/12/2005 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: Chapter one is something we have focused on quite a bit in earlier book chats. I do feel Leslie does a good job presenting the situation out there, and heartily agree that the Federal Government made the problems worse, by keep changing who was in charge etc.
9/12/2005 9:16 pm (et) ks: I thought so as well, Basecat. We've read some of this in Monaghan's "CW on the Western Border"...perhaps elsewhere too.9/12/2005 9:17 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie says, analyzing Quantrill, "William Clarke Quantrill, motivated by economic opportunity, especially the availability of land," in regards to his move to Missouri, how do we know Quantrill's motivation?
9/12/2005 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: Then again, who in their right mind would want to be in charge out there...That was insanity, and hard to straighten out insanity.9/12/2005 9:17 pm (et) ks: The letters he repeatedly share from Q to his mother do speak of wanting to provide $$, don't they?
9/12/2005 9:17 pm (et) ks: Did the reading fit in w/any preconceived notions you had of the KS/MO situation? If not, what surprised you?9/12/2005 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...To me you can judge that from the letters he wrote home to his mom...He most certainly told her he was looking for a strike of any kind.
9/12/2005 9:18 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I agree the the set up for the conditions in Kansas - Missouri were well done, complete lawlessness.9/12/2005 9:19 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Do they ks, and that's how his motivation is determined by Leslie?
9/12/2005 9:19 pm (et) ks: That's the only "evidence" that I know of which we'd even have to make such a judgment at this point, AHG.9/12/2005 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: ks...Notion I have here, US Government because of distance from the problems out there, had no real idea how to fix the problems. That and the fact the Army was so small at the time these events were going on is a major problem as well.
9/12/2005 9:20 pm (et) ks: Not saying I "agree". Was just answering your earlier question. :)9/12/2005 9:20 pm (et) archieclement: Most people weren't moving west for the culture and civilization
9/12/2005 9:20 pm (et) Babs: One thing I don't remember reading before was that the motive of some people to move to Kansas was to give an example of success without using slaves. Obviously that motive (If you believe it) got quickly lost in the mess out there.9/12/2005 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Arch...Very true, and do buy his argument...more about money than what they felt about the slavery issue.
9/12/2005 9:21 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie fails to mention how he determined motivation. I've read it before too, but I'm trying to follow Leslie's take on the subject.9/12/2005 9:21 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...which is a good point. Minds changed once they got out there, IMHO.
9/12/2005 9:21 pm (et) ks: Nope. Manifest Destiny was moving them west. LAND and the opportunities it presented...now toss in Stephen Douglas's KS Nebraska Bill of 1854 allowing for the opening of the 2 territories to settlers...9/12/2005 9:22 pm (et) ks: BUT leaving it to the voters in each territory to decide if slavery there would be legal.
9/12/2005 9:22 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...exactly....along with Gold...9/12/2005 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: Also reaffirmed one thing.. Jim Lane never knew what a comb was..;) Sheesh...The Don King of the 19th Century..:)
9/12/2005 9:22 pm (et) archieclement: LOL9/12/2005 9:22 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ....lol...
9/12/2005 9:23 pm (et) ks: Anyone (step right up, archie) wish to lay out those "worrisome implications" of the KS/Nebraska act to Missourians??9/12/2005 9:23 pm (et) ks: We can talk KS/NEBRASKA while I take Base's cue... ;) And we didn't even TALK first. ;)
9/12/2005 9:24 pm (et) archieclement: there was nothing worrisome bout it at the time ks9/12/2005 9:24 pm (et) ks: http://www.us-civilwars.net/civilwarmuster/images/newlane.gif I just *love* that picture. ;)
9/12/2005 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Capt. M...Very good point...Easy money..or so they thought...9/12/2005 9:24 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: .....I thought they felt pretty secure that it would be "even trade"...Kansas - proslavery...Nebraska - freemen...
9/12/2005 9:24 pm (et) ks: Oh? Leslie certainly disagrees with you, archie. The possibility of being surrounded by free states for one.9/12/2005 9:25 pm (et) Basecat: Problem I have always had with the Kansas/Nebraska Act...Douglas...what right did he have to be the so called expert on how to handle things out there??
9/12/2005 9:25 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...a lot of Western Mo's definitely staked plots...9/12/2005 9:27 pm (et) ks: And they hadn't counted on those Eastern Abolitionist's with OTHER ideas about KS's fate.
9/12/2005 9:27 pm (et) Basecat: Will just add, You know why the atrocities committed out there were done?? Theyknew..Both sides they could get away with it, as there was no authority out there big enough to stop it.9/12/2005 9:27 pm (et) amhistoryguy: "Perceptions" on both sides of any issue create more problems often that certainties.
9/12/2005 9:27 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ....lol...I don't think so...9/12/2005 9:28 pm (et) ks: Let's try that again! I"ll flat out POST it here!
9/12/2005 9:28 pm (et) archieclement: sorry lost conn9/12/2005 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG...Exactly...Did you hear what so and so did?? All rumor based, and done to inflame the tension out there, IMHO.
9/12/2005 9:29 pm (et) archieclement: was saying not at that time ks9/12/2005 9:29 pm (et) ks: Wondered what had happened to you, arch. :)
9/12/2005 9:30 pm (et) Babs: enters the chatroom.9/12/2005 9:30 pm (et) archieclement: at the time Mo, most of the south, I dare even say a large part of the north had just assumed Neb free, Ks slave
9/12/2005 9:30 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...exactly...9/12/2005 9:31 pm (et) archieclement: so it wasn't really that worrisome at passage
9/12/2005 9:31 pm (et) ks: Then enter the likes of Eli Thayer and the New England Emigrant Aide Society *strains of the Kansas Immigrant Song playing in the background*9/12/2005 9:31 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...until that "Boston $$"
9/12/2005 9:32 pm (et) ks: Boston $$ and Puritanical mindset. Someone I heard speak on this subject explained it as "My business is my business and YOUR business is MY business too". :)9/12/2005 9:33 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...lol...yeah....
9/12/2005 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: ks...I find it infinitely amusing as to how anything that happened at that time came along with a Theme song..9/12/2005 9:33 pm (et) archieclement: BTW chapter one this week the timing was just well..... even as we loan our Guard to La now, we did to Ks back then to restore civil order, makes one kinda proud:)
9/12/2005 9:33 pm (et) amhistoryguy: It takes two to tango, but in the case of the situation out there there were far more than two sides.9/12/2005 9:33 pm (et) ks: Leslie made a real point to draw our attention to the importance of the PRESS in the conflict...attempting to sway public opinion.
9/12/2005 9:34 pm (et) amhistoryguy: The press saw that as their job, they were political instruments.9/12/2005 9:35 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...isn't that something...much like they are now...oops ..did I say that
9/12/2005 9:35 pm (et) archieclement: so true capt:)9/12/2005 9:35 pm (et) Babs: I thought it.
9/12/2005 9:35 pm (et) amhistoryguy: some things never change capt.9/12/2005 9:36 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...funny though....I never read about so many fellows and their presses & type going into creeks...
9/12/2005 9:36 pm (et) ks: Yes, you did. :) And I agree. BTW I have seen the remains of the PRESS from Lawrence that was dumped in the Kansas River at Lawrence. To see those type set letters and other pieces at the KS State Historical Society. ...way cool. :)9/12/2005 9:36 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ....can you imagine?
9/12/2005 9:37 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: I had wondered if anybodys ever found any?9/12/2005 9:37 pm (et) ks: Other thoughts on Chapter One? Two chapters to go this PM....
9/12/2005 9:38 pm (et) ks: They have and they're proudly displayed, Capt. :)9/12/2005 9:38 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...kinda...
9/12/2005 9:38 pm (et) archieclement: Like I said earlier I was a tad surprised of the Fed treatment of browns son9/12/2005 9:38 pm (et) ks: For the scrollers. . .Free State Hotel aka Eldridge Hotel History or http://www.legendsofamerica.com/OZ-EldridgeHotel.html
9/12/2005 9:39 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...I often wonder why so many "historians" or folks claim Brown a hero?9/12/2005 9:39 pm (et) Basecat: Thought that occurred to me here, reading about Quantrill and teaching. That's one thing this country has been consistent in...Teachers never getting paid the wages they deserve.
9/12/2005 9:40 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...the man murdered no less ruthlessly then Quantrill...and he even brought his sons in the crime..
9/12/2005 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: Capt. M. I don't look at him as a hero, but that said, he was dead on with his comments right before he was hanged.9/12/2005 9:40 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...perhaps...a lucky guess...lol...just kidding...
9/12/2005 9:41 pm (et) ks: And to some he's a murdering psychopath and to others he's a martyr or hero...same as Quantrill. What I found interesting and a distinction LESLIE made is that in his opinion Brown came to KS for the specific reason of getting involved in the issue. Quantrill stumbled into it.9/12/2005 9:41 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...yeah...
9/12/2005 9:41 pm (et) ks: Ready for chapter two?9/12/2005 9:41 pm (et) archieclement: the massacre was interesting
9/12/2005 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: Capt. M... Thing about Brown...and am paraphrasing what he said to his own son...I did not kill anyone, but I heartily endorsed it...9/12/2005 9:42 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...kinda strange how Quantrill lied about his brother...?
9/12/2005 9:42 pm (et) mike65: enters the chatroom.9/12/2005 9:42 pm (et) archieclement: when browns son asked, ole brown claims he didn't do it, the other son says he couldn't
9/12/2005 9:43 pm (et) ks: It was. :) But I think we'll get to talk about the massacre again. And we need to move to the other chapters, okay? :)9/12/2005 9:43 pm (et) ks:
”The Blight That Falls on Remote Generations”: Quantrill’s Family Background and Early Years…wherein we learn “the truth: about Q’s heritage. Quantrill was born in Dover, OH on July 31st (same day as my youngest, hmm…) 1837. Leslie states that “rascality” was Q’s heritage. Your thoughts??
9/12/2005 9:44 pm (et) archieclement: cool your youngest has Q's birthday:)9/12/2005 9:44 pm (et) ks: BTW it's *great* to have so much comment that we are struggling to get to the other chapters. Thank you all. ;)
9/12/2005 9:45 pm (et) ks: I just realized that TODAY, archie! ;) And my oldest resides on Mt. Oread and maintain that liberal LAWRENCE attitude. God has a sense of humor. ;)9/12/2005 9:45 pm (et) Babs: That uncle was sure sumpin'!
9/12/2005 9:45 pm (et) archieclement: Quantrill was a common middle name here after the war, did you give your youngest it?9/12/2005 9:45 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: .."rascality"...he did pull off a lot of petty thefts....
9/12/2005 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: ks...Judging by Uncle Jesse, Yeah, I can see where he got the rascality..:)9/12/2005 9:46 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...and time in the hoosegal..
9/12/2005 9:46 pm (et) ks: :)9/12/2005 9:47 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...it's strange...women, like Mary, that will tolerate such b.s.....loll...
9/12/2005 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: Capt. M..and Uncle Jesse was no genius...Got caught all of the time, but always seemed to get out of it.9/12/2005 9:47 pm (et) amhistoryguy: When Leslie wrote of the jayhawker and writes, " 'Of what use,' the jayhawker sneered," I thought I was reading a novel rather than history. How do we know "he sneered?"
9/12/2005 9:48 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...lol....adjectives my friend...just adjectives...lol..9/12/2005 9:49 pm (et) ks: He takes some...liberties, doesn't he? Of this writing style HARRY again made comment:
It’s a good book and I’m enjoying it, but I’m not sure that what I’m reading is history
9/12/2005 9:49 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Seemed to me he was trying to impart some sinister quality to the jayhawker?9/12/2005 9:50 pm (et) Babs: I hear writing is better if it has a bias.
9/12/2005 9:50 pm (et) archieclement: LOL jayhawkers are born with sinister quality, no need to impart9/12/2005 9:50 pm (et) Babs: :^)
9/12/2005 9:51 pm (et) ks: Interesting. I've thought (so far) that he was showing how darned near EVERYONE was rotten or capable of being rotten. That paragraph by some newspaperman describing the differences and similarities between jayhawkers, border ruffians, bushwhackers, red legs, etc. Love that. Should type it up to post as well.9/12/2005 9:51 pm (et) mike65: impart?
9/12/2005 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: Just some thoughts here, and my interpretations of why he left Dover. Don't think he left to help out his family, he left because he could not stand what had befallen to him. I find it interesting just how many time he wrote his mom I am coming home, and then was out of touch for months at a time. Does not sound like someone really concerned with helping out the folks at home.9/12/2005 9:52 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...back to the question of "rascality"...and comment on base.. Quantrill's letters to his mother...I don't believe he ever meant to send her money...
9/12/2005 9:52 pm (et) mike65: why not9/12/2005 9:52 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ....the Texas Army/land grant was fine example..
9/12/2005 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: Capt. M...Same here.. and who knew that Tinsmithing books were best sellers at that time??9/12/2005 9:52 pm (et) ks: So what was he doing? Keeping his mother informed of his whereabout and good intentions?
9/12/2005 9:53 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie is pretty critical of Connelley, for having used so much of his research.9/12/2005 9:53 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ....lol....hate to "analyze"....lol
9/12/2005 9:53 pm (et) archieclement: in several of the letters didn't it refer to money he had sent?9/12/2005 9:53 pm (et) ks: Something that struck me was the similarity between Q and old J. Brown in their repeated attempts to make good at different enterprises...and their repeated FAILURES.
9/12/2005 9:54 pm (et) ks: Yes, small amounts. Believe he did, arch.9/12/2005 9:54 pm (et) Babs: amh, I thought the same
9/12/2005 9:54 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG...Using his research to show Connelly's bias.9/12/2005 9:54 pm (et) Basecat: As for the letters home...He said he would send money, but not sure if he ever did...
9/12/2005 9:54 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ....I don't believe she ever received ??9/12/2005 9:55 pm (et) archieclement: I wouldn't say he was much as a failure ks, just the one thing he was sucessful, as base said there wasn't much money in it
9/12/2005 9:55 pm (et) Basecat: Capt. M...Am with you...Letters said he would...not sure if he did.9/12/2005 9:56 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...I'm only going on other authors...sorry...
9/12/2005 9:56 pm (et) ks: He received small amounts in repayment himself....THAT is what I read. Dif. matter, sorry.9/12/2005 9:56 pm (et) archieclement: couple that that with teaching woulda been pretty boring with all that was going at that time
9/12/2005 9:56 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie's comment that Connelley's "sole source" for some of the stories of William Quantrill's childhood behaviors, was Harmon Beeson, when in fact Connelley's footnote credits the information from members of the Beeson family.
9/12/2005 9:57 pm (et) bluelady: well all I must be off. Will catch the rest in the scroll and try to catch up on the HW next time.
9/12/2005 9:58 pm (et) ks: Other thoughts on Chapter 2? For those of you new to the chat, we typically run a bit over an hour. We could easily go longer tonight, but have to move along for the sake of those who will log off and go to bed anyway. ;) After we conclude officially, we can still continue to chat. Blue! Right on cue! ;)9/12/2005 9:58 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie seems willing to overlook the fact that even if Harmon Beeson had motive to badmouth Quantrill, it does not necessarily mean the stories are NOT true.
9/12/2005 9:58 pm (et) ks: True enough.9/12/2005 9:58 pm (et) archieclement: hmmm thought Leslie points out Connelly had several sources
9/12/2005 9:59 pm (et) archieclement: he just ignored the rest9/12/2005 9:59 pm (et) ks: Quote worth emphasizing IMO…
”The situation on the border was still simmering, and Quantrill, accidentally stumbling into the conflict rather than drawn to it, would nevertheless eventually take his place at its very center.” Stumbled in rather than drawn to…unlike a certain “old J. Brown”.
9/12/2005 9:59 pm (et) ks:
”Hard & Scaly Times” Quantrill’s Western Travels…wherein we are made familiar with those events and people who were a part of Q’s 180 degree turns in his point of view…
9/12/2005 9:59 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ks....My apologies my good friend...but I must leave too....Next Quantrill Meeting"??
9/12/2005 10:00 pm (et) ks: Next MONDAY, same time, same bat channel, Captain. :)9/12/2005 10:00 pm (et) Basecat: ks...This chapter, to me anyway, shows he went where he thought the money was.
9/12/2005 10:00 pm (et) ks: Read the scrollback to catch the rest of the chat, Captain.9/12/2005 10:01 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ...Nice....I will be here....See ya on group...Good nite all...
9/12/2005 10:01 pm (et) Capt.McCracken: ks...I will.. Thanks...9/12/2005 10:02 pm (et) amhistoryguy: The most telling part of this chapter (3) is where Leslie writes, "Its hard to know how seriously to take this story without being able to evaluate its origins."
9/12/2005 10:02 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Of course Leslie is referring to Connelley again, but I think it applies to Leslie as well.
9/12/2005 10:02 pm (et) archieclement: not that unusual9/12/2005 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: amhg, which leads me to believe he wrote what he felt was the correct version, and thus not an analytical Bio. at all.
9/12/2005 10:03 pm (et) ks: To begin with I couldn't IMAGINE his mother sending him to KS with BEESON! The guy his father tried to kill and who in turn whacked him with a red hot poker??9/12/2005 10:03 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Ove - Of
9/12/2005 10:03 pm (et) archieclement: this period of his life is were the least is known9/12/2005 10:03 pm (et) ks: What's not that unusual, archie.
9/12/2005 10:04 pm (et) ks: Sometimes the sequence of post lead to confusion...for moi anyway. ;)9/12/2005 10:04 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I don't doubt for a moment that Leslie believes his version is "correct," but it is certainly analytical.
9/12/2005 10:04 pm (et) Basecat: ks.. Problem I have with that, he writes that long letter home, and says I will tell you the truthful version of what happened, and yet Leslie does not tell us what he told his Mom once he gets back home.. and why she is sending him away??9/12/2005 10:04 pm (et) archieclement: that the least is known, at the time he was a nobody, hardly any known accounts of him that date from this period
9/12/2005 10:05 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Analytical and critical of another author, who he, Leslie, cites when it suits him.9/12/2005 10:05 pm (et) archieclement: what accounts there are date from later, where one has to wonder if they could be biased
9/12/2005 10:06 pm (et) ks: I see. But still we do know from the letters included and their dates that he made some major changes in points of view during this time.9/12/2005 10:06 pm (et) archieclement: people remembering him after he was famous/infamous
9/12/2005 10:07 pm (et) archieclement: yes the letters are about it that originated in the time frame9/12/2005 10:07 pm (et) ks: And...I didn't know BEANS about any Mormon War until this chapter. Sometimes called America's 1st CW....huh
9/12/2005 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: ks, which is very true, but this "incident" is never fully explained...Just don't understand why his Mom had to send him away...Of course I blame this all on Dan Sickles..;)
9/12/2005 10:07 pm (et) ks: I'd be suspect (and am suspect) of accounts taken from folks after he'd gained such notariety.9/12/2005 10:09 pm (et) Basecat: One thing I will say about Quantrill...a survivor ..story about the trek to the gold fields, and how he was one of the few survivors was something.
9/12/2005 10:09 pm (et) ks: Base, and the wording...his mother helped arrange his "escape"?
9/12/2005 10:10 pm (et) Basecat: ks...Opening sentence of Chapter 3...Escape from what..that's what I don't understand.9/12/2005 10:11 pm (et) archieclement: it sad there aren't contempary accounts of him, but a part-time teacher, part time odd jobber, bouncing from place to place isn't/wasn't very noteworthy
9/12/2005 10:12 pm (et) Basecat: Arch...That's the problem...Accounts are from folks years after the fact.9/12/2005 10:13 pm (et) archieclement: especially when the frontier had such a transiet population
9/12/2005 10:13 pm (et) amhistoryguy: The last few paragraphs in Chapter 2 describe how Quantrill may have killed a man. The escape was due to this I believe.9/12/2005 10:13 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie is a confusing writer, doesn't seem to believe in continuity or chronological order.
9/12/2005 10:14 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG...Which I got, but in the letter to his mom, he said he would tell her the whole story. He must have, but Leslie does not tell us what the whole story was.9/12/2005 10:14 pm (et) ks: Amen! I thought the chapters were very out of order.
9/12/2005 10:15 pm (et) ks: arch, in the descriptions of his clothing (as when gambling at Frogtown), did you get the sense that he was setting us up for the descriptions of guerrilla clothing later on? The way he emphasized the shirts and the trousers tucked in the boots...9/12/2005 10:17 pm (et) archieclement: hmm never thought of it that way, guerrillas never really created there own clothing stye other than shirts
9/12/2005 10:18 pm (et) ks: I guess we'll see in chapters to come.9/12/2005 10:18 pm (et) archieclement: would assume guerrilla style was for the most part common dress in the west at the time
9/12/2005 10:19 pm (et) archieclement: by that I mean with gambler, drifter, cowboy types9/12/2005 10:19 pm (et) ks: Have read of emphasis on the shirts. Something I heard some author at the fort speak about as well. Of course I don't recall WHO it was. Some Bleeding KS weekend so whether that was Goodrich, Etcheson, Matthews or some other, can't say.
9/12/2005 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: BTW...The Fountain has got a new trivia question from reading the homework tonight...What do Ted Williams and William C Quantrill have in common?? :)9/12/2005 10:20 pm (et) ks: We be floundering some, good folks. :) Really an animated discussion tonight though.
9/12/2005 10:20 pm (et) ks: Ted who??? ;) No idea, Basekatchka.9/12/2005 10:20 pm (et) archieclement: they took pride in their shirts
9/12/2005 10:21 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Didn't the guerilla shirts have deeper pockets, for ammunition?9/12/2005 10:21 pm (et) archieclement: mostly becouse they were tokens from family usually
9/12/2005 10:21 pm (et) ks: Yes9/12/2005 10:21 pm (et) Basecat: As one of the moderators here, I appreciate seeing newcomers wishing to be involved in these chats, and like ks, I really enjoyed the discussion tonight. Thank you all for participating.
9/12/2005 10:22 pm (et) archieclement: had several pockets for revolver cylinders, usually very fanicly embroidered from a loved one9/12/2005 10:22 pm (et) ks: Any closing thoughts from you gentlemen?
9/12/2005 10:22 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Thanks to the moderators9/12/2005 10:22 pm (et) archieclement: fancily
9/12/2005 10:23 pm (et) archieclement: just a note to everyone9/12/2005 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: amhg.. Thanks..You hit on subjects that came to mind when I was reading today, and hope you continue to be a part of our discussions.
9/12/2005 10:23 pm (et) Skylark: I think "fanicly" is appropriate from a loved one.9/12/2005 10:23 pm (et) amhistoryguy: A very interesting subject, Quantrill, I haven't made up my mind yet about Leslie's treatment of the subject.
9/12/2005 10:24 pm (et) Basecat: Same here....but will do so as I continue to read the book.9/12/2005 10:24 pm (et) archieclement: any book on Quantrill you read this period of his life is a lot of conjecture, the letters are bout the only contempory source
9/12/2005 10:24 pm (et) ks: That last paragraph of Chapter 3 I found very dramatic. "Even as he lies paralyzed and dying in a military prison infirmary an easy ride by rail from Dover, he will maintain his cover, like some modern double agent, and long after his death, his mother will insist that she does not know what has become of him and will have to visit his grave and see his skull before acknowledging that the deceased, infamous guerrilla and her beloved, devoted son are one and the same."9/12/2005 10:26 pm (et) archieclement: I've read several, they vary some. its hard by the diff writers to not inject some of their opinion for lack of source, but every account I've read they do to some degree
9/12/2005 10:26 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Another case of Leslie's lack of control in writing chronologically. By Chapter three he has his mother's reaction to William's death.9/12/2005 10:27 pm (et) Basecat: Homework for next week ks??
9/12/2005 10:27 pm (et) ks: Skylark, have you scrolled and seen the contents of the wheezing refrigerator? ;) We've been trying to uncover or develop a "face" for Quantrill tonight. Begining of the saga anyway.9/12/2005 10:27 pm (et) archieclement: I tend to agree with Leslie Connelly was the worst
9/12/2005 10:27 pm (et) archieclement: ks picture Connelly as a KS Edwards9/12/2005 10:28 pm (et) amhistoryguy: and yet Leslie cites him time and time again.
9/12/2005 10:28 pm (et) ks: Next 3 chapters, 4, 5, 69/12/2005 10:28 pm (et) Skylark: I have, briefly; I have not read the book, but it sounds from your reactions that the author is quite taken with his subject.
9/12/2005 10:28 pm (et) ks: That's right. Keep me on task, Basecat. ;)
9/12/2005 10:28 pm (et) archieclement: I like Edwards but LOL would be hard to say he was unbiased with a straight face:)9/12/2005 10:29 pm (et) Skylark: Greetings, Mobile the Civilized.
9/12/2005 10:29 pm (et) Skylark: LOL archie!9/12/2005 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: ks...:)
9/12/2005 10:30 pm (et) mobile_96: evenin' ks, archie, Sky, amhg, Base, and anyone else I can't see yet9/12/2005 10:30 pm (et) Basecat: Evening Mobile.
9/12/2005 10:30 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Good evening Mobile9/12/2005 10:30 pm (et) archieclement: Connelly like Edwards did do some research am
9/12/2005 10:30 pm (et) Skylark: Did I note the Return of the Man From Texas this evening??9/12/2005 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: Sky...scrolled before chat..and yes, he has returned.
9/12/2005 10:31 pm (et) archieclement: but both tended to disregard anything that didn't fit their picture9/12/2005 10:31 pm (et) Vickie: good evening all :-)
9/12/2005 10:32 pm (et) Skylark: I see nooooooooooossssing, Meester Fawlty.9/12/2005 10:32 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Good evening Vickie
9/12/2005 10:32 pm (et) mobile_96: evenin' Vickie
9/12/2005 10:31 pm (et) ks: I meant to post this at the beginning of the discussion tonight. But you all jumped right in and got things rolling so quickly. Good for YOU! ;)
9/12/2005 10:32 pm (et) Skylark: Ah.9/12/2005 10:33 pm (et) Skylark: So this is the guy....
9/12/2005 10:33 pm (et) archieclement: if you read one by Edwards, and one by Connelly, Leslie is surely the one in the middle LOL9/12/2005 10:34 pm (et) Skylark: At what point in his career was this, KS?
9/12/2005 10:34 pm (et) Basecat: Sky...Check the scroll for a link ks posted earlier...wax head of said Quantrill in a fridge..:)9/12/2005 10:35 pm (et) Skylark: Oh Yuuuuuuuuuck so I assume this was taken before that...
9/12/2005 10:35 pm (et) mobile_96: word has a tendency to do code the way it wants KS, use txt instead9/12/2005 10:35 pm (et) archieclement: in Edwards he is Saint Quantrill, Connelly as him not even human LOL
9/12/2005 10:35 pm (et) ks: Place where I lifted it didn't say, but I'd guess he's quite young.9/12/2005 10:36 pm (et) archieclement: you'd love the Edwards book am
9/12/2005 10:36 pm (et) ks: I've learned to do that when working on websites, mobile. haven't resorted to it for here. :) Guess I should.9/12/2005 10:36 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Hope they warn new employee's about the fridge before they go to put their lunch in.
9/12/2005 10:37 pm (et) ks: And again I wonder what's up with the room and these big white chunks of space? Just noticed them off and on the past 24 hours.9/12/2005 10:37 pm (et) Basecat: amhg..:) Kind of think they don't, just for the laugh factor..:)
9/12/2005 10:37 pm (et) ks: :-D If not, it'd be more than Q's toupe's hair standing on end, AHG.9/12/2005 10:38 pm (et) Basecat: ks...Same here...
9/12/2005 10:38 pm (et) Skylark: LOL "He's the sandwich thief monitor, just ignore him"9/12/2005 10:38 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Archie, at least even with a huge bias, you know where you stand. Leslie acts like he has something to hide.
9/12/2005 10:39 pm (et) Skylark: Is it too early to tell whether Leslie simply doesn't have all his facts?9/12/2005 10:39 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Being from Wisconsin, I think I should make a head cheese joke, but I won't
9/12/2005 10:39 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG, something to hide as in, he was not as bad as what Connelly depicted.9/12/2005 10:40 pm (et) Skylark: oooooooooo thanks for not doing that, amhg
9/12/2005 10:40 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Leslie seems to have done a Huge amount of research, he most certainly has all the fact available9/12/2005 10:40 pm (et) Skylark: Then is he holding back for dramatic effect, would you say?
9/12/2005 10:40 pm (et) Basecat: Sky...Can't say that now, but can clearly see he feels that others who have wrote on him did so with a bias toward the negative stories about Quantrill.9/12/2005 10:40 pm (et) archieclement: don't really think so, as we on it will become more firm, more direct facts, accounts and evidence to base on
9/12/2005 10:41 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Base, no, more like he has a man crush on Quantrill, but wants to come off as un biased.9/12/2005 10:41 pm (et) Skylark: So he is writing fancily. There you go, arch, you knew what you were saying. :-)
9/12/2005 10:42 pm (et) Basecat: Man crush...LOL...Have no idea what that means, and am no Seinfeld who had a man crush on Keith Hernandez...:)9/12/2005 10:42 pm (et) amhistoryguy: You'll have to ask Leslie what that means ; )
9/12/2005 10:42 pm (et) archieclement: Castel wrote in one of his books, he started out with a dim veiw of them, but the more he researched it was hard to not admire them9/12/2005 10:42 pm (et) Skylark: Sorry... a man crush?? Is that when one man simply idolizes another?
9/12/2005 10:42 pm (et) Basecat: ks.. Be thankful it was not 28 times..;)9/12/2005 10:43 pm (et) ks: :)
9/12/2005 10:43 pm (et) archieclement: imagine any author has that prob to some degree9/12/2005 10:43 pm (et) amhistoryguy: yeah, idolize, admires, feels sorry for, feels he has to defend etc etc.
9/12/2005 10:44 pm (et) archieclement: ks did you notice in the book it says that image of him has been altered?9/12/2005 10:44 pm (et) Basecat: Arch...especially when who you are writing about leaves no papers,,and you get into the speculating game.
9/12/2005 10:44 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing, but I think when an author doesn't recognize it, or does and tries to hide it, it is a bad thing.9/12/2005 10:44 pm (et) archieclement: LOL its no diff than most CW books i've read
9/12/2005 10:44 pm (et) ks: What image, arch?9/12/2005 10:45 pm (et) Skylark: I see. From the Urban Dictionary. Johnny Depp is referenced here, boys.
9/12/2005 10:45 pm (et) archieclement: the one you posted of Q9/12/2005 10:47 pm (et) ks: No, I didn't. I don't even know where you've seen an image in the book as there is none in mine. Not in the first 3 chapters anyway. I haven't read ahead. :) Where's a picture? What page?
9/12/2005 10:47 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Doesn't mention having a man crush on a dead guy ; )9/12/2005 10:47 pm (et) archieclement: Like alot of the books on the east, its not hard sometimes to tell the author personally admires Lee, doesn't necessarilly make the book bad
9/12/2005 10:48 pm (et) archieclement: 2369/12/2005 10:49 pm (et) Skylark: Oh so no male can have a man crush on Stonewall Jackson? HMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm
9/12/2005 10:49 pm (et) Basecat: BTW...Have alerted my next of kin, that if I am cut up and buried in 3 states, look in here to find the culprits..;)9/12/2005 10:49 pm (et) archieclement: I mean really i imagine a high % of bio's are wrote by admirers
9/12/2005 10:49 pm (et) Skylark: Why only 3, Base? We have9/12/2005 10:50 pm (et) Basecat: Depends Arch...Just look at Sears and Little Mac.
9/12/2005 10:50 pm (et) Skylark: er, We have 509/12/2005 10:50 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Doesn't mention having a man crush on a dead guy ; )
9/12/2005 10:51 pm (et) Skylark: I think many many many men have man crushes on TSJ.9/12/2005 10:51 pm (et) archieclement: I agree base, just in general
9/12/2005 10:51 pm (et) ks: No picture on 236 here. But I did find a section of images before that and I hadn't looked ahead at them at ALL. Laughing seeing that they chose the same picture of Lane that *I* did!! I took mine from our 2003 muster website imagery. ;)9/12/2005 10:51 pm (et) Skylark: Obviously none of the men here will admit to it.
9/12/2005 10:51 pm (et) Basecat: Sky...How thoughtful.. sharing the essence of the Basecat to all in these United States...Thanks..;)9/12/2005 10:52 pm (et) archieclement: LOL sky I never have:)
9/12/2005 10:52 pm (et) Skylark: It's good to share, Base, besides, the pieces are smaller to carry.9/12/2005 10:52 pm (et) Skylark: LOL archie!
9/12/2005 10:52 pm (et) ks: BTW my youngest (born on the same day as Q) is home from football. Again he sacked the QB. ;) My little boy....9/12/2005 10:52 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Sky, be careful when you open your fridge.
9/12/2005 10:52 pm (et) Skylark: Isn't your "little boy" twelve and a half feet tall?9/12/2005 10:53 pm (et) Skylark: I don't think I will open my fridge for a while, thanks, amhg.
9/12/2005 10:53 pm (et) ks: Not yet. :-D9/12/2005 10:53 pm (et) archieclement: Once I read Bearrs comment "Bowens Mo brigade makes the Stonewall brigade look like the little sisters of the poor" how could I admire that Jackson fella:)
9/12/2005 10:54 pm (et) Skylark: :-) KS
9/12/2005 10:55 pm (et) Skylark: So you believe Bearss, Arch?9/12/2005 10:55 pm (et) archieclement: I've always felt sorry that little sister guy:)
9/12/2005 10:56 pm (et) ks: While digging through Barton and Para's sight for the image of the wax headed Q, I found mention of Cathy Barton that I'd forgotten. Cathy is editor of the "No Quarterly," the newsletter for the William Clarke Quantrill Society, of group of people interested in studying this perplexing history. She and Dave were interested in the chatroom. Wonder if they'd consider signing on NOW? :)9/12/2005 10:57 pm (et) archieclement: isn't Bearrs kinda like the Pope, kinda halfway between God and the rest of us:)
9/12/2005 10:57 pm (et) Skylark: Let them know, KS, why not?9/12/2005 10:57 pm (et) mobile_96: time to email them KS, and see if they have time
9/12/2005 10:57 pm (et) Skylark: So you have a man crush on Bearss. Got it.9/12/2005 10:58 pm (et) ks: LOL! Oh, the snippets of quotes from this room that I could USE in a newsletter for the room....ahhhh....
9/12/2005 10:58 pm (et) Skylark: Where would you put the movie "Ride with the Devil" on the truth scale?9/12/2005 10:58 pm (et) Skylark: LOL please don't KS!
9/12/2005 10:59 pm (et) archieclement: BTW not catholic, just using the poe as a comparison9/12/2005 10:59 pm (et) archieclement: oops pope
9/12/2005 10:59 pm (et) amhistoryguy: HOLLYWOOD, Skylark, nothing to do with truth.9/12/2005 10:59 pm (et) archieclement: very low sky
9/12/2005 10:59 pm (et) Skylark: That is all right, Archie, Poe has a high standing in here too.9/12/2005 11:00 pm (et) Skylark: LOL Thank you, gentlemen, I was wondering...
9/12/2005 11:00 pm (et) archieclement: up there with the Pope?9/12/2005 11:00 pm (et) Skylark: Higher, for some!
9/12/2005 11:00 pm (et) Skylark: *Ducking lightning bolt*9/12/2005 11:00 pm (et) ks: AHG, it was Hollywood, but I thought it did a better job of depicting the Border war than anything *I* have ever seen. And I Thought it got the "look" of the KS/MO are just right. Loved that movie.
9/12/2005 11:01 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Wasn't Poe one of the seven little black bears who wanted to be polar bears?9/12/2005 11:01 pm (et) ks: are=area
9/12/2005 11:01 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks all for the book chat tonight...Enjoyed it very much. Last night on Doggie patrol, and from the looks on their faces, best I take them outside. Night all, and hope all who pass this way have a fine Tuesday.9/12/2005 11:01 pm (et) archieclement: for a movie it wasn't bad, the characters are not that representive
9/12/2005 11:01 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Night Base, thanks9/12/2005 11:01 pm (et) ks: Of course it SHOULD have being that it was filmed in the KS/Mo area. ;)
9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) ks: Night Base. :)9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) Skylark: No Arch, there were only three bears; the others were Edgar and Allen/
9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) Basecat: AMHG.. Thank You...Means a lot to have new folks involved in chat.. Much appreciated.9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) ks: Now archie, I thought you loved PItt Mackeson. :)
9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I think it gave a good visualization of the violence of KS - Mo - entertaining.9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) archieclement: there were 3 blacks that rode with Q, probably even less Germans:)
9/12/2005 11:02 pm (et) Skylark: Good night, Base!9/12/2005 11:03 pm (et) archieclement: yes at least they tried to get some things close
9/12/2005 11:03 pm (et) mobile_96: night Base
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