Book Chat
The Grand Havoc of Battle"
Kenneth W. Noe

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 06/07/09 and covered Chapters 15 & 16.

6/7/2009 9:08 pm (et) Susansweet: June 7 Perryville: This Grand Havoc of Battle by Kenneth Noe.

6/7/2009 9:08 pm (et) Susansweet: Chapter 15 Tramp, Tramp , Tramp Chapter 16 The World Has Changed

6/7/2009 9:08 pm (et) Susansweet: and remember about pms
 6/7/2009 9:10 pm (et) Susansweet: So we start with the Army of the Mississippi retracing it's path back to Harrodsburg Pike.

6/7/2009 9:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Sorry I did Drum Barracks all day yesterday I am fried again

6/7/2009 9:11 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Interesting that Buell finally read Braggs correctly, but no one believed him.

6/7/2009 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: Seems like nobody believes anybody in this battle.

6/7/2009 9:12 pm (et) mobile_96: 0r knows where anyone actually is headed to.

6/7/2009 9:12 pm (et) bluelady: The common soldier would have done better in command...they knew.

6/7/2009 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: And we find Bragg changing his mind again.

6/7/2009 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: Anyone surprised.

6/7/2009 9:13 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Both Buell and Bragg did not want another fight.

6/7/2009 9:13 pm (et) bluelady: No...he did that forever.

6/7/2009 9:14 pm (et) bluelady: No surprise there either.

6/7/2009 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: Poor men some at the end of the line would never stop marching.

6/7/2009 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: Is this Sill the one that Fort Sill is named for ?

6/7/2009 9:14 pm (et) bluelady: I was going to say some of them tramped all over KY for nothing!

6/7/2009 9:15 pm (et) Susansweet: I can just hear Sam Watkins.

6/7/2009 9:15 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Right, I believe the men were just tired of marching.

6/7/2009 9:16 pm (et) mobile_96: Surprised there were no Watkins comments in this chapter.

6/7/2009 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: And Smith's ego and Bragg's indecision get in the way.

6/7/2009 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Wonder why no Sam ?

6/7/2009 9:16 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I thought the same thing Blue. Except for Perryville. Troops marching everywhere before and after. No wonder they were angry, especially at Buell.

6/7/2009 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Just glad we don't have to march all around Kentucky that we can ride.

6/7/2009 9:17 pm (et) bluelady: I think the title of the chapter Sam said.

6/7/2009 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: Sounds like something he would say.

6/7/2009 9:18 pm (et) mobile_96: Even after being hit so hard, the guys in blue wanted to chase down the rebs.

6/7/2009 9:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Kirby Smith finally connects with Bragg, but doesn't really become a factor. Smith was still aching for a fight, but I don't think Bragg had any stomach for more fighting just then.

6/7/2009 9:18 pm (et) bluelady: He didn't have much to say about the retreat except he was hungry.

6/7/2009 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: But as the book says Bluell just pursued Bragg cautiously wary of stepping accidentally on the tiger's tail!

6/7/2009 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Buell not Blue she had nothing to do with it..

6/7/2009 9:19 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Why march your troops in pursuit it you don't really want to catch the enemy.

6/7/2009 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: lol

6/7/2009 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: Some would say I am that old! hehe

6/7/2009 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: Just to make it look good, he was being watched by Washington.

6/7/2009 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: To keep an eye on them?

6/7/2009 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: That too

6/7/2009 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: bite your tongue I am older than you!!!

6/7/2009 9:21 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe, make sure they didn't double back on him.

6/7/2009 9:21 pm (et) bluelady: :)

6/7/2009 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: I like the way compares him to a chess player losing a championship match.

6/7/2009 9:21 pm (et) mobile_96: I did a double take when I read that Buell's men knew 3 days before Buell did, that he had been sacked.

6/7/2009 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: Buell that is.

6/7/2009 9:22 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: OK ladies, back to your corners. I have you both beat.

6/7/2009 9:22 pm (et) bluelady: Amazing how the rumors fly and become truth.

6/7/2009 9:23 pm (et) bluelady: Yeah ok I am betting I am the young one here tonight...maybe.

6/7/2009 9:23 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: How did that happen, Mobile. Just bad communications or people in the right places.

6/7/2009 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: Yeah.

6/7/2009 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: And not a surprise the men knew before Buell. Shoot they knew there was a battle raging before Buell did.

6/7/2009 9:24 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: So you're saying that Buell didn't find out that he was sacked earlier due to acoustical shadow! haha

6/7/2009 9:24 pm (et) bluelady: Exactly and if I recall...the person with the orders did not want to tell Buell right away.

6/7/2009 9:25 pm (et) mobile_96: And he read it in the papers, so even the public knew before he did.

6/7/2009 9:25 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Maybe it was the "accoustical shadow"

6/7/2009 9:25 pm (et) mobile_96: More like the shadow of bad luck

6/7/2009 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: A Major shadow!!!

6/7/2009 9:27 pm (et) mobile_96: General Shadow?

6/7/2009 9:27 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: He didn't have bad luck - he was just a bad commander, all the way around. McClellan was slow also and sometimes indecisive, but at least he cared for his men.

6/7/2009 9:28 pm (et) bluelady: LF..not when it came to medical care...he was very bad at that.

6/7/2009 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet: The quote about tramp tramp tramp is from Sam it is there on page 337.

6/7/2009 9:29 pm (et) mobile_96: He contributed to the death of a lot of his men.

6/7/2009 9:30 pm (et) bluelady: He didn't allow but only one medical wagon and scant supplies and no hospital set up.

6/7/2009 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: I really like this book although I do like biographies.

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: I like battles too

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) bluelady: I need to get this book for myself so I can mark it up.

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: I did.

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) Pvt Miles: And logistics was his strong suit.

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: But if you loan me the Jackson I won't mark in it .

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Exactly, Blue. How could someone as uncaring as that even be allowed to command troops. It's almost inhuman.

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) bluelady: :)

6/7/2009 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Hmmmm that's scary Wally.

6/7/2009 9:32 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Which Jackson, Susan?

6/7/2009 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Stonewall I have lost my copy.

6/7/2009 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: It is for Drum book discussion.

6/7/2009 9:33 pm (et) bluelady: Really...but in defense...this is still young in the war and it took putting together an actual medical corp to get field hospitals remotely right.

6/7/2009 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: When I was involved with the Cowboy Cultural committee people would ask what cowboys were doing at a Civil War reenactment. There it is on page 336 Like true Texas cowboys , Terry's Rangers herded droves of cattle.

6/7/2009 9:34 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Well, true, but it stands to reason that if you're going into battle, someone's gonna get hurt. And they went through Shiloh.

6/7/2009 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Took Letterman to organize the Union hospital system.

6/7/2009 9:35 pm (et) bluelady: Shiloh was a shock to all...there were still some generals who thought this would still end soon.

6/7/2009 9:35 pm (et) mobile_96: Agree Jean, Shiloh did produce the first attempt at a field hospital, but took a while to gain recognition.

6/7/2009 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Amazing isn't it that he can't figure that out , someone is going to get injured and need help.

6/7/2009 9:36 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Right, but my point is, given the destruction at Shiloh, what commander would leave behind medical facilities. Inexcusable.

6/7/2009 9:36 pm (et) bluelady: Also tactics and other innovations take time..brb.

6/7/2009 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Buell

6/7/2009 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: He did leave them behind at Louisville, IIRC, so never had any to call up.

6/7/2009 9:38 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: It took the sanitary commission to bail him out.

6/7/2009 9:39 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Guys, do you get the feeling that Buell is not my favorite person.

6/7/2009 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Who would ever guess?

6/7/2009 9:40 pm (et) bluelady: Gee I didn't see that.

6/7/2009 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: I think Buell and Bragg both are high on my list of least favorite.

6/7/2009 9:40 pm (et) mobile_96: He's not many people's favorite.

6/7/2009 9:41 pm (et) Pvt Miles: For Bragg, his grand design to bring Kentucky into the fold amounted to nothing.

6/7/2009 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: One thing that did not take soldiers long to do is mark out where loved ones were buried so they could find their graves again later.

6/7/2009 9:41 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: No, this guy is at the bottom.

6/7/2009 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: Bragg counted on the citizens to come to his side...but they did not.

6/7/2009 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: And yet he has places on both coast named for him.

6/7/2009 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: All dreams, built on the fantasies of Morgan and Smith. 

6/7/2009 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Fort Bragg California and North ? Carolina.

6/7/2009 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Good way to put it Mobile.

6/7/2009 9:42 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, Blue, but it didn't seem as though later many were identified. I think they did the best job they could. I feel bad that they had to leave the confederate dead unattended, but they didn't have a lot of time.

6/7/2009 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: And as Bragg's army leaves it is an angry army.

6/7/2009 9:43 pm (et) bluelady: Bragg, Buell, Sickles, and Polk are my least favorite.

6/7/2009 9:43 pm (et) bluelady: True and some of them who had the time did nothing to bury the dead confederates.

6/7/2009 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: I will agree with that list.

6/7/2009 9:44 pm (et) bluelady: Polk should have stuck to preach IMHO.

6/7/2009 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: And Pillows.

6/7/2009 9:45 pm (et) bluelady: And Sickles should have been doing 25 to life.

6/7/2009 9:45 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Right, Blue. I have a lot of respect for Cleburne after reading this book, however.

6/7/2009 9:45 pm (et) bluelady: Ohh I forgot about Pillow.

6/7/2009 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: I always have respect for Cleburne.

6/7/2009 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: And he comes though again on the retreat even though he is injured.

6/7/2009 9:45 pm (et) bluelady: They didn't call that Irishman stonewall of the west for nothing.

6/7/2009 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: Yeppers that he was.

6/7/2009 9:46 pm (et) mobile_96: And he was still trying to recover from the wound received at the Richmond fights.

6/7/2009 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: Now we are talking the top of my list for Generals.

6/7/2009 9:46 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Because I've not read a lot about the western battles, I had never read much about him before.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: I would have liked to have met him.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: My fantasy match would be Jackson vs Grant.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) bluelady: LF a lot of this is new to me as well.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Get yourself a copy of Stonewall of the West by Craig Symonds.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Could a decisive Confederate victory have secured Kentucky?

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I have a good bio on Cleburne here at home.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Western Person here.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Which one ?

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) bluelady: LF..that would have been interesting for sure.

6/7/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Symonds is the best one out there.

6/7/2009 9:48 pm (et) bluelady: I'm not sure Miles.. I think it may have depended on how it was followed up.

6/7/2009 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: I also like old Cheatham.

6/7/2009 9:49 pm (et) mobile_96: Don't think that victory could be held for long, Bragg made a lot of Ky people mad.

6/7/2009 9:49 pm (et) bluelady: Susan that is on my list as well...once I get a new book shelf :)

6/7/2009 9:49 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Pat Cleburne, Confederate General, by Howell and Elizabeth Purdue. Never read it. I bought it for Jerry, but I think he liked it.

6/7/2009 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: Don't think they could have secured Kentucky as so many people were unionist.

6/7/2009 9:49 pm (et) mobile_96: And I think Lincoln would have pumped more troops into the state.

6/7/2009 9:50 pm (et) bluelady: I'm not crazy about Cheatham...sometimes he was as bad as Polk.

6/7/2009 9:50 pm (et) Pvt Miles: True, Bragg had a way of alienating.

6/7/2009 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: When he was good he was good though and Patrick liked him.

6/7/2009 9:51 pm (et) bluelady: true

6/7/2009 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: Geeze that book is out of print and selling used for starting at 65 dollars.

6/7/2009 9:53 pm (et) bluelady: Susan...get back on topic! hehe

6/7/2009 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: So now Rosecrans takes over the Army and takes the Union army back to Nashville.

6/7/2009 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Back on topic.

6/7/2009 9:53 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I think I bought it from the General's Books from B&G.

6/7/2009 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Sorry you know how I am about Patrick.

6/7/2009 9:54 pm (et) bluelady: Once again against orders from Washington.. Lincoln wanted him to stay in east Tennessee.

6/7/2009 9:54 pm (et) bluelady: I know that is why I gave you a nudge.

6/7/2009 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: lol

6/7/2009 9:55 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yeah, but here's where Buell is actually correct in what he wants to do.

6/7/2009 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: All the marching leads right to Murfreesboro.

6/7/2009 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Needs to do??

6/7/2009 9:56 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: When Roscrans relieves Buell, he's at the right spot. Buell correctly guessed where Bragg was going to be..

6/7/2009 9:56 pm (et) bluelady: I don't know why they thought taking central Tennessee would help east Tennessee.

6/7/2009 9:57 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Right, Mobile.

6/7/2009 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Tennessee is so different east and west and even central.

6/7/2009 9:57 pm (et) bluelady: Can anyone tell me how Rosey was picked over Thomas?

6/7/2009 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Last chapter of the book the World has Changed.

6/7/2009 9:58 pm (et) bluelady: was it because they still were not convinced of Thomas's loyalty?

6/7/2009 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: Don't know except maybe they though Thomas was too slow?

6/7/2009 9:58 pm (et) mobile_96: Backlash from Thomas declining from taking over the army from Buell earlier, maybe.

6/7/2009 9:58 pm (et) bluelady: Ok that too.

6/7/2009 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: And the loyalty might be part of it too.

6/7/2009 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: And the backlash is good reason too.

6/7/2009 9:59 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Or they already knew Thomas didn't want it.

6/7/2009 9:59 pm (et) Susansweet: The last chapter was really hard to read, hearing about the men's life's after the war.

6/7/2009 9:59 pm (et) bluelady: ok I might have to read about stone's river again to get that answer.

6/7/2009 10:00 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Up to this point Thomas hadn't exactly shone.

6/7/2009 10:00 pm (et) bluelady: And it reminded me so much of coco's Gettysburg aftermath book.

6/7/2009 10:00 pm (et) mobile_96: Plus Rosey was the hero of Iuka and Corinth.

6/7/2009 10:00 pm (et) Susansweet: He comes into his own at Chickamauga right ?

6/7/2009 10:01 pm (et) Susansweet: Many of these soldiers had post traumatic stress syndrome just not a name for it yet.

6/7/2009 10:01 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought the last chapter a good one, showing how the battle affected, not only them, but their families also.

6/7/2009 10:01 pm (et) bluelady: And another thing I just thought of...Rosey was from were most of the troops he would take over.

6/7/2009 10:01 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Mobile .

6/7/2009 10:01 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I was glad Noe wrote that last chapter. So often in these books, the battle is over, and the army and war move on to the next battle. Few authors bother to return to the battlefield to tell about the aftermath and how if affected people's lives.

6/7/2009 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: Also the information about the making of the park was interesting to read.

6/7/2009 10:02 pm (et) bluelady: You don't here much about the psychological effect of the were supposed to just suck it up back then...but many couldn't and suffered for it.

6/7/2009 10:02 pm (et) bluelady: Yes.

6/7/2009 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Many came west because of the psychological effects.

6/7/2009 10:03 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I can't even imagine how far some of the men had to walk for medical treatment after being wounded.

6/7/2009 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: They couldn't go home and lead a normal life.

6/7/2009 10:03 pm (et) bluelady: Many died in insane asylums too.

6/7/2009 10:04 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: For many families, and communities, there was no "normal life" again.

6/7/2009 10:04 pm (et) bluelady: Really LF and how many were untreated for so long a period.

6/7/2009 10:04 pm (et) Susansweet: By the way after the war Rosecrans came to Southern California and bought himself a rancho named the little Redondo. Nothing is left of it but the city is no Redondo beach and a major street running east west to the ocean is Rosecrans Blvd.

6/7/2009 10:04 pm (et) bluelady: It took years for a community to come back from being part of a battle.

6/7/2009 10:04 pm (et) mobile_96: And we see where pensions are used to help their parents, not just surviving children/spouse's.

6/7/2009 10:04 pm (et) Susansweet: Named not no.

6/7/2009 10:05 pm (et) Susansweet: That was interesting mobile.

6/7/2009 10:05 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I had never thought about how the war affected the economic situation in some communities.

6/7/2009 10:05 pm (et) bluelady: And Ft Rosencrance is in SC as well.

6/7/2009 10:05 pm (et) Susansweet: Any further comments on this book?

6/7/2009 10:05 pm (et) Susansweet: What would you say to others about this book as to recommending it ?

6/7/2009 10:06 pm (et) bluelady: No except is gave us a great insight as to how this battle was fought.

6/7/2009 10:06 pm (et) Susansweet: How would you rate it ?

6/7/2009 10:06 pm (et) bluelady: Get it before you go to the battlefield and take it with you along with a good map.

6/7/2009 10:06 pm (et) 4eyes: After the war till the 1880's the major employer in Mississippi was prosthetics. Man made arms and legs.

6/7/2009 10:06 pm (et) bluelady: A good detailed FFF book.

6/7/2009 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Jean are you bringing your copy?

6/7/2009 10:07 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Unless you really are into the war, don't read it. If you like battle books, and, especially if you are going there, it's a must.

6/7/2009 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Civil war was the first time the US Government paid for prosthetics.

6/7/2009 10:07 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: You bet, Susan

6/7/2009 10:07 pm (et) mobile_96: Except for a few places where the movements were confusing, I found it a excellent book, mostly easy to read.

6/7/2009 10:07 pm (et) Pvt Miles: I thought the information on the genesis of the park and its development was a fitting way to conclude.

6/7/2009 10:08 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Are you?

6/7/2009 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Wally that was a good way to end the book.

6/7/2009 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: Not if you do.

6/7/2009 10:08 pm (et) bluelady: Right LF the audience for this book is not the novice in studying this war far too much detail and assumed knowledge.

6/7/2009 10:09 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Mobile, I found the book really difficult to follow, especially in the beginning. It got easier as we went along.

6/7/2009 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: Any other comments before we close this book chat for the final time.

6/7/2009 10:09 pm (et) bluelady: FFF's are not easy for me to read...but a must for battlefield study.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: I would say I could follow the troops easier as I have read so much about the western armies.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) 4eyes: How many casualties?

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) bluelady: Great job moderating Susan.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) mobile_96: Of course, I've read other books on Perryville, so following the action was easier.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Same men in Southern Army I have read about before.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Thanks Blue.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Guess, that was my problem, Blue. As I'm not familiar with this part of the war, I didn't have much assumed knowledge.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) mobile_96: But still think Noe's Easy writing are a big plus for this book.

6/7/2009 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: This ends our book discussion on Perryville. A new discussion will be posted after Muster . Check CWi for details.