Land of Lincoln: Adventures in Abe's America
Andrew Ferguson6/29/2008 9:08 pm (et) Basecat: OK...it seems the stragglers have all arrived...Welcome to the Sunday Night book chat on Andrew Ferguson's book LAND OF LINCOLN: ADVENTURES IN ABE'S AMERICA. Reminder please refrain from using the the PM feature during the duration of the chat. Our talk tonight begins on Chicago and Mr. Lincoln in Chapter 3 of the book..."The Past isn't what it used to be". And by reading this this evening, it is an aptly titled chapter.
This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 06/29/08 and covered Chapters 3 & 4.
6/29/2008 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: My first question goes out to Mobile who lives in the Chicagoland area...Is that description accurate of today's Chicago in terms of understanding Abe??6/29/2008 9:11 pm (et) Korky: As a follow up, was Ferguson's depiction of the statue true that it doesn't look like Lincoln?
6/29/2008 9:12 pm (et) mobile_96: Only been to the historical society once, and that was some years ago, and never have been face to face with the statue.6/29/2008 9:13 pm (et) Babs: Dave, Have you?
6/29/2008 9:14 pm (et) mobile_96: Was going to see if there was a pic of it online somewhere, but haven't been able to stay online to do it.6/29/2008 9:14 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Nope, I avoid Chicago as much as possible. : )
6/29/2008 9:14 pm (et) mobile_96: Same here Dave6/29/2008 9:15 pm (et) Babs: Does that mean you guys don't want a mini-muster there?
6/29/2008 9:15 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Guess we should look on the net for a better picture than the one in the book.6/29/2008 9:16 pm (et) Korky: In titling the chapter, "The Past isn't what it used to be," coupled with the fact that Saint-Gaudens statue doesn't look like Lincoln, coupled with the Political Correctness of the new CHS depictions of Lincoln, I think Ferguson is pointing out that as times change, we try to use Lincoln for our own purposes.
6/29/2008 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Just looked it looks like him but not like other statues6/29/2008 9:16 pm (et) Basecat: http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/art/chisculp.htm
6/29/2008 9:16 pm (et) Vickie: From the pictures I've found online you can tell the statue is Lincoln.6/29/2008 9:17 pm (et) Vickie: I have been past there but have never stopped. I guess we will do that next time were in Chicago
6/29/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree with Vickie it looks like Lincoln.6/29/2008 9:17 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I would have to say that as far as "Understanding Lincoln," the "inner" or "outer," Chicago would be no different than just about any other place in the country, IMO. The fact that Lincoln was from Illinois would, again, IMO, play little role.
6/29/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: But not quite like other statues of him.6/29/2008 9:17 pm (et) Vickie: I guess we're about the only ones who enjoy visiting Chicago :-)
6/29/2008 9:18 pm (et) Korky: Mr. Esche, the Thai Cafe owner, revered Lincoln thinking he would not eat pork, A Jewish Lincoln?6/29/2008 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...it really bothered me when I read at the PCing of Abe... Don't understand that all...
6/29/2008 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: Especially in Chicago of all places...6/29/2008 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: I loved the description of Jane Adams walking to the statue
6/29/2008 9:19 pm (et) Babs: Vickie, I like Chicago too.6/29/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: That really was emotional.
6/29/2008 9:19 pm (et) Korky: I think Ferguson's theme throughout the book was to show how we all are inspired by Lincoln and want to exploit his memory for our own needs. With the PC approach, the CHS curators did not want to offend people but still wanted to keep Lincoln as the star of the exhibit.6/29/2008 9:20 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: OK, I think the statue looks enough like him.
6/29/2008 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: LF...So do I...6/29/2008 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: By taking most of the material on him out of play...seems kinda silly to me.
6/29/2008 9:20 pm (et) Korky: It amazed me that in the 1930's and 40's, visitors to the museum could actually sit on Lincoln's divan and docents could wear Mary's clothes.6/29/2008 9:21 pm (et) mobile_96: His mouth is different from the usual poses of his.
6/29/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Korky that amazed me too.6/29/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Shocked me actually.
6/29/2008 9:21 pm (et) Korky: Seems the Lincoln artifact collecting frenzy had not yet set in at that point.6/29/2008 9:21 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Was it really his divan, though. Remember, he also had the serpent's skin.
6/29/2008 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: Surprised me as well...but I guess that was "fun" back in them thar days.6/29/2008 9:22 pm (et) Korky: Regardless, Ferguson was pointing out that the Lincoln artifacts were available to people and the reverence had yet to set in.
6/29/2008 9:23 pm (et) Korky: amhistoryguy, I'm not seeing any text near your entry. Are you set to "ALL"6/29/2008 9:24 pm (et) Babs: Sad about the copy of the Emancipation Proclamation burning in the Chicago fire.
6/29/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Thought I had when reading the talk Ferguson had with the guy at the CHS...In their own way they recreated Abe so he could be more identifiable to today's people. Which is not the real Abe, but a 21st century vision to not offend anyone. That bothers me.6/29/2008 9:24 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Screen not refreshing all the time without a post - so you get a blank so I can see what is posted.
6/29/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: The reverence was there , Jane Adams had reverence for Lincoln.6/29/2008 9:25 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Babs that WAS sad. I didn't know the original was gone.
6/29/2008 9:25 pm (et) Korky: No question Addams had reverence. I think we all do. We just display it in different ways.6/29/2008 9:25 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...and he makes the point of how much they spent for that "piece of paper"...$800,000 for something that is probably not on display right now either.
6/29/2008 9:27 pm (et) Korky: What did you think of using Libby Prison as a tourist draw. Seems people were trying to make a buck on Lincoln. Gunter was clearly an entrepreneur trying to make a buck on Lincoln.6/29/2008 9:28 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I wonder what happened to all the papers and things they found "underground" and in storage. I kept thinking it would wind up in the Lincoln Library, but it doesn't sound as though they are heavy on artifacts.
6/29/2008 9:29 pm (et) mobile_96: Believe a lot of Chicago material is going to, or has gone to Springfield over the last couple years.6/29/2008 9:29 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I've been to where Libby Prison was and it's just a plaque on the riverfront. If Chicago doesn't want it any more, they should send it back to Richmond,
6/29/2008 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...Typical of the day...Gunther was a lot like Brady in that way.6/29/2008 9:29 pm (et) amhistoryguy: People will always be looking to make a buck on Lincoln, even Ferguson.
6/29/2008 9:29 pm (et) Korky: What do you think of the way that the CHS tried to make Lincoln Politically Correct to those that visited.6/29/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...I thought it sucked, and a major problem I have with academis historians today.
6/29/2008 9:30 pm (et) mobile_96: Korky, he may have been out to make a buck, but in the process , possibly saved a lot of Lincoln material along the way6/29/2008 9:30 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Korky, when they "sanitized" Lincoln, well, Ferguson puts it best "bor-ing".
6/29/2008 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: That is the important thing mobile he saved a lot of material.6/29/2008 9:31 pm (et) Korky: The thinking of the curators was that they did not want to offend anyone while still drawing those people in who were not interested in History.
6/29/2008 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: I loved that statement Lincoln fan6/29/2008 9:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Which can sometimes get people interested enough to dig further into the topic.
6/29/2008 9:32 pm (et) Korky: Seems when we remove the realities of the 19th century, slavery, Civil War, death, I can imagine that being controversial to the curators who did not want to offend or create controversy.6/29/2008 9:33 pm (et) Korky: mobile_96, I think keeping Lincoln in theme does intrigue interested attendees to do further reading. After all, I keep reading...
6/29/2008 9:34 pm (et) Basecat: It's a problem I have here, and have spoken quite a bit about it over the past few years...Abe Was Gay...Abe Was Manic Depressive...Abe was this and that...Instead of focusing on the history we are getting more of a psychological history of Abe these days. Will not be surprised if a book comes out prior to the Bicentennial of his birth that he had bed wetting issues as well.6/29/2008 9:34 pm (et) mobile_96: But without slavery/civil war, would we still have the Lincoln legend??
6/29/2008 9:34 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Sometimes I think they are making Lincoln into someone Lincoln wouldn't even recognize. And, Korky, when we remove all of those those realities, we are destroying our history. Lincoln wasn't always PC for crying out loud. That's part of what made him so controversial.6/29/2008 9:35 pm (et) secret squirrel: Mobile, no.... that is where Lincoln shined.
6/29/2008 9:35 pm (et) Korky: Basecat, I think what is most interesting, is we continue to use Lincoln to suit our own needs. That is why Lincoln can be Gay and be a manic depressive. We see what we want to see.6/29/2008 9:36 pm (et) mobile_96: What about the latest thoughts on him having cancer.
6/29/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: That surprised me Mobile.6/29/2008 9:36 pm (et) amhistoryguy: In order to find the "real" Lincoln, IMO, you have to throw out everything that others said about him, about half of what Lincoln said about himself, and look deeply into what Lincoln DID. Those deeds identify the "Real" Lincoln, IMO.
6/29/2008 9:37 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Where did you hear about cancer? That's new to me.6/29/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: I haven't read much but what type of cancer are they saying he had?
6/29/2008 9:37 pm (et) Korky: No thoughts other than to say, Lincoln continues to intrigue people who want to offer new ideas about him.6/29/2008 9:37 pm (et) secret squirrel: guy, i agree 100%.
6/29/2008 9:38 pm (et) Susansweet: Dave I think you hit the nail on the head!!!6/29/2008 9:38 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...I agree...in a way...but you read these books, and I shake my head, but understand why they are written and published.
6/29/2008 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Heard nothing on type, just that from the way he aged in only 4 years, is it possible he had cancer.6/29/2008 9:38 pm (et) Korky: But amhistoryguy, you would throw out what Herndon had to say about Lincoln?
6/29/2008 9:39 pm (et) mobile_96: Brought up in a discussion group.6/29/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile look at other presidents , they age alot in four years also.
6/29/2008 9:39 pm (et) Korky: Basecat, because Lincoln is a subject that attracts literate scholars with a plausible thesis. I think Ferguson said that Lincoln is the subject of over 14,000 books. Seems we all have things to say about him.6/29/2008 9:39 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Absolutely, what anyone told Herndon, doesn't mean a hill of bean when it comes to identifying the "real" Lincoln.
6/29/2008 9:40 pm (et) Babs: I just read it somewhere too (about the cancer).6/29/2008 9:40 pm (et) secret squirrel: What does it matter what people say? We will never know the "truth" whatever that is.
6/29/2008 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: I think the most telling tale of this chapter is the Esche Family, and how Mom, who had no idea about Abe, got curious, and decided to learn about him. Kinda blew me away when I read that, and about the yearly pilgrimages they made to Springfield.6/29/2008 9:41 pm (et) Korky: After 14,000 books have been written about Lincoln, who'd think the real Lincoln would have emerged at some point?
6/29/2008 9:41 pm (et) Korky: You'd think that should have said.6/29/2008 9:41 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Base, I thought that was amazing. I like the way Ferguson summarizes it, about the Buddist shrine to the Jewish president.
6/29/2008 9:41 pm (et) mobile_96: And their children doing the same thing.6/29/2008 9:41 pm (et) Korky: Can we trust Lincoln himself?
6/29/2008 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: LF...Blew me away...and go figure...6/29/2008 9:42 pm (et) Korky: He was a corporate Railroad Lawyer with an ambition to be President. Why did he portray himself as a Railsplitter. To appeal to the average Joe, to get elected. Sound familiar in 2008?
6/29/2008 9:42 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Only what he did - 100%6/29/2008 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: I loved the story of the Esche family
6/29/2008 9:43 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Did HE portray himself as Railsplitter, or did he allow others to portray him as such?6/29/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: He didn't campaign so others did it for him.
6/29/2008 9:44 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: You know, I used to think Lincoln was great because he was lucky enough (or unlucky) to be in the right place at the right time, but when we look at what he did, the effect his life and deeds had on the country, and his IMO political genius, I've really changed my mind over the years.6/29/2008 9:44 pm (et) Korky: An actor who portrayed Lincoln once said that if you read all of the books on Lincoln, then you get to know Lincoln. He likened it to trying to measure the true path of an electron, in putting the probe in, the electron goes elsewhere. So to know the true path of an electron, who have to know all possible paths so that you can determine the true path.
6/29/2008 9:45 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Richard J. Oglesby, with John Hanks, initiated the railspitter nickname at the convention.6/29/2008 9:45 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...Probably not...and I see your point...At least he was funny...the joke about the speaker wanting to talk about the second coming of the Lord, and the punch line "If the Lord's seen Springfield one time...He ain't coming back". :)
6/29/2008 9:46 pm (et) Korky: amhistoryguy, I think Lincoln exploited his rural beginnings to great advantage. I think people had a presupposed image of the country bumpkin. I think William Seward did, and later after he got to know Lincoln's genius, he knew differently.6/29/2008 9:46 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I always liked the one about the person who called him two-faced and he responded, "if I had two faces, would I be using this one?"
6/29/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: LF..:) That's a good one as well.:)6/29/2008 9:47 pm (et) Korky: My point being, I think Lincoln knew that being portrayed as a Railsplitter would help with some people. Lincoln was a Lawyer when he ran for president.
6/29/2008 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore comments on this chapter?6/29/2008 9:47 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Korky, it was my understanding that Lincoln did not want to exploit his rural image, that the politicians who promoted him wanted that done.
6/29/2008 9:48 pm (et) Korky: I was only trying to show amhistoryguy, that to know Lincoln you have to understand what everyone thought of him.6/29/2008 9:50 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: True
6/29/2008 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: If not ..Chapter 4...Springfield and the ALPLM.6/29/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: I don't think you need to understand Lincoln by what others thought of him
6/29/2008 9:50 pm (et) amhistoryguy: So If I know that someone thought he was a homosexual, I understand Lincoln, sorry, I don't buy it.6/29/2008 9:51 pm (et) Korky: Susansweet, I don't think we should exclude those inputs to understand him though either.
6/29/2008 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Don't buy it either Dave6/29/2008 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: Is it just me, but are others surprised that this museum was built with the 7th grader in mind?
6/29/2008 9:51 pm (et) Korky: No amhistoryguy, I'm referring to those who knew him in his day, primary witnesses. Not people who chose to exploit Lincoln to suit there own needs.6/29/2008 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: Not at all they are the mainstay of museums anymore
6/29/2008 9:52 pm (et) Korky: Basecat, I find it troubling today that people view the American tourist as someone who can only understand at a 7th grade level.6/29/2008 9:53 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Now, that's a place I'd like to visit, the ALPLM. I was in Springfield, but the museum had not yet opened. Can't wait to see how they portray Lincoln's life without guns and it sounds like they have "sanitized" him there too. Base, why would the 7th grade mentality surprise you. Most TV shows are geared to that group.
6/29/2008 9:53 pm (et) amhistoryguy: There may be a benefit to understand those inputs, and clarify, but when someone from his era says something about him, it is their opinion, presented after the fact. Look how many people claimed to have been in attendance at Ford's on that night.6/29/2008 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Those who knew him in his day had reasons to exploit him also.
6/29/2008 9:53 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...My thoughts exactly...Scares me where we are going education wise.6/29/2008 9:53 pm (et) Babs: To me economically viable museums have to appeal to school age visitors. Field trips are big bucks.
6/29/2008 9:53 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Everyone wants to feel that they touched greatness, and that makes them great.6/29/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: That is the reason it is geared to 7th grade , they are the ones coming in droves on field trips.
6/29/2008 9:54 pm (et) Korky: Also, to compete with iPods, Video Games, etc, the ALPLM felt compelled to bring on a Disney theme in order to draw people in to Lincoln. Wonder what Lincoln would have thought of his legacy via Disney?6/29/2008 9:54 pm (et) Basecat: You know what got me....the stuff about making sure those in the Museum don't use the emergency exit...and how much was obviously spent on that.
6/29/2008 9:55 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: If anyone has visited the Freedom Center in Cincinnati, it's wonderful but kind of on the same level.6/29/2008 9:55 pm (et) mobile_96: At what grade level is history delegated to the back of the class today?
6/29/2008 9:56 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: ALL grade levels!!!!!!6/29/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Then again Korky, they did do a really good job, bringing the presentation into the modern era, IMHO
6/29/2008 9:56 pm (et) Basecat: Having just visited the new VC at Gettysburg...Much the same thing as well...and makes me wonder in this day and age if a 7th Grader has ever actually read something as mundane as a book?6/29/2008 9:56 pm (et) Babs: The Disney connection has lessened my interest in seeing the Springfield site. I am one of the people mentioned who is turned off by Disneyfication.
6/29/2008 9:56 pm (et) secret squirrel: It sounds horrible, the Disney aspect; but is it really?6/29/2008 9:57 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...Bothered me too...No guns, but lets show the Lincoln kid's peeing on a hot stove...
6/29/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Having grown up in the land of the Mouse I do not like the disneyfication6/29/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: But still want to see it.
6/29/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Steve that amazed me that that is what they want to show but no guns6/29/2008 9:58 pm (et) mobile_96: Didn't feel the presentation was Disney in nature.
6/29/2008 9:58 pm (et) Korky: I'm stealing the thunder from page one of chapter 5, but one of the reasons for having the ALPLM was to care for the artifacts. It was said that the museum was to cost $10 million dollars. After completion, $150 million was spent. In the 5th chapter, Ferguson sees a blue folder on the receptionist's busy desk and ask what it is. Apparently it was an original copy of the Gettysburg Address that was left out by accident. Seems it was not as important as the image the museum was trying to portray.6/29/2008 9:58 pm (et) secret squirrel: I say this because I know of a vendor that went to several film lighting companies to get an operating room light designed.
6/29/2008 9:58 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I agree Babs. And they aren't all that accurate historically either. I happen to know one of the people who made some of the clothing for the museum and they had some mistakes in the clothing designs which she tried to point out. They told her not to change anything, no one would notice.6/29/2008 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: Sounded like in the books the animatrons are Disney inspired but not actually Disney.
6/29/2008 9:59 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I have to agree with you mobile, was polished, but did not feel like it was Disney.6/29/2008 9:59 pm (et) mobile_96: Correct Susan, nothing about the site is cartoonlike.
6/29/2008 9:59 pm (et) secret squirrel: If a presentation can be historically correct, and it capturing a target audience attn, I don't necessarily think it is bad.6/29/2008 10:00 pm (et) Susansweet: I had a friend years ago that was one of those animation engineers.
6/29/2008 10:00 pm (et) mobile_96: I even thought the "Election", done in a Modern style was pretty classy.6/29/2008 10:01 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Have any of you been there? I hope he was joking about the figures looking like Disney characters.
6/29/2008 10:01 pm (et) mobile_96: There is so much presented it can overwhelm you if you don't slow down at some point.6/29/2008 10:01 pm (et) Korky: So secret squirrel, changing History to suit the needs of the current day folk is acceptable as long as it draws people in?
6/29/2008 10:01 pm (et) Vickie: The figures do not look like Disney characters.6/29/2008 10:01 pm (et) amhistoryguy: History doesn't have to be confined to books, and artifacts with an occasional diorama thrown in. It is difficult or perhaps just different to see it "Live."
6/29/2008 10:02 pm (et) secret squirrel: Korky: I said if it was historically correct.6/29/2008 10:02 pm (et) Vickie: I've been there 7 times and will keep returning to see it all again.
6/29/2008 10:02 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I have been there. I saw no mouse : )6/29/2008 10:02 pm (et) mobile_96: And there is no History changing at the Springfield museum.
6/29/2008 10:02 pm (et) Korky: Sorry. But I think that is Ferguson's fear.6/29/2008 10:03 pm (et) Babs: That's good to hear.
6/29/2008 10:03 pm (et) Korky: Would you say all of us would continue to go there despite any historic inaccuracies? I would say we are all history lovers.6/29/2008 10:04 pm (et) Korky: mobile_96, There are no guns in the museum that discusses the Civil War and a President shot by an assassin?
6/29/2008 10:04 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Thanks for the reassurance. I'm still planning to go there. Would you say that Springfield succeeded in its plans to build something that would draw the public for more than one day?6/29/2008 10:05 pm (et) Vickie: I wonder how many people will read this book and think the museum is like a Disney land and decide not to go see it.
6/29/2008 10:05 pm (et) Basecat: You know what I did not like?? The talk about whether the casket should be opened or closed...and Bob Rogers made it a point to say let's show Abe in various decomposing stages to ensure pure historical interpretation...That's where he has no clue...Message would be clear seeing Abe in his casket as he looked in life. Everything does not have to have a POTC look.6/29/2008 10:05 pm (et) Korky: I went to Springfield 5 years ago. I enjoyed the Lincoln Homestead, the law office, the capital and the Tomb. I would have gone back without the new Museum.
6/29/2008 10:05 pm (et) mobile_96: LF, the Museum has done more per year, than they ever expected, and continues to do so, even considering the numbers that attend6/29/2008 10:05 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I'm not counting the threads in a frock coat, and to tell you the truth, I didn't know that there were no guns. I didn't go looking for any, but the CW portrayal seemed "normal".
6/29/2008 10:06 pm (et) secret squirrel: I think they embalmed him many times, as a matter of fact the last time they opened his casket many many years later, he was still recognizable.6/29/2008 10:06 pm (et) Korky: They even photographed him in the coffin.
6/29/2008 10:06 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve POTC?6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: Dave...Gun point was made because, yeah, they are part of CW history. You know me and guns...we do not mix, but it is part of the story.
6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: "Pirates of The Caribbean". :)6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) mobile_96: Plus the museum keeps changing the 'theme' of their presentation, so you can go back every year or so and see something different.
6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh thanks.6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) Vickie: amh I didn't know there were no guns there either. Just never noticed that all the times iv been there.
6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) Babs: Susan, Thank you. I couldn't figure it out either.6/29/2008 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: Korky...That they did, in City Hall in NYC.
6/29/2008 10:08 pm (et) Korky: I think if you are a Lincoln aficionado, you'll be pleased by anything Lincoln. To those with an iPod and little time in the school year to learn about Lincoln, I think the Museum can win you over.6/29/2008 10:08 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Oh, pirates. Yeah, we would have guessed that, right?
6/29/2008 10:09 pm (et) Basecat: Have nothing against the Museum, but history is history. Problem I have is making it like a Broadway show, when the point is to learn about our history. Am guessing the Esche family got it by Mom reading the book.6/29/2008 10:10 pm (et) mobile_96: Vickie, maybe its because you went to see the Lincoln presentations, not so much the War aspect of his life.
6/29/2008 10:11 pm (et) ks: For me, reading that the museum was Disney-like was incentive TO go. We love Disney. ;)6/29/2008 10:11 pm (et) Basecat: You know what it reminded me of?? The "It's A Small World Ride" at Disney World. Life is not a production number.
6/29/2008 10:11 pm (et) Susansweet: Books are important , you all know how much I love books ,but you need to grab students to history in many ways , visual , audio, tacticle.6/29/2008 10:11 pm (et) Korky: How ever you get energized to study Lincoln, if you do study him, what difference as to what motivated you in the first place. Does the bookstore in the Museum well stocked with all types of Lincoln books or does it cater to those only interested in trinkets?
6/29/2008 10:11 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Actually, there's something to be said for learning something from other than a book. Look how much more we get out of actually walking a battlefield.6/29/2008 10:11 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Basecat, are you becoming a snob about the way you learn history ? : )
6/29/2008 10:12 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, the museum is nothing like a broadway show6/29/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Korky, Both
6/29/2008 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: Never have seen the place, but from reading this tonight...that's how it was conceived.6/29/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: We found in schools that when we take kids to see whales they learn more about whales. A friend of mine took her kids each year to the Renaissance faire and to an over night on a replica of the Pilgrim. 24 hours before the mast . They learned a lot more getting ready for these events and at the events both.
6/29/2008 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...Yep...Guess I have officially become an Ol' Fart. :)6/29/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96: But with the help of a number of educators, and..........historians
6/29/2008 10:13 pm (et) secret squirrel: When educating, you have to use medium(s) that fit the learner.6/29/2008 10:14 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Well, I don't care much for Disney, but I'll go now because all of you have really got my curiosity up.
6/29/2008 10:14 pm (et) Korky: I want to go to the Museum. But I'd also want to spend time at the Homestead and the Law Office and the Tomb. Does the museum have tours to those places?6/29/2008 10:14 pm (et) mobile_96: No, but you can join the tours each site has in place.
6/29/2008 10:14 pm (et) Susansweet: They are close by and easy to get to and tour.6/29/2008 10:15 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Korky, Don"t forget New Salem. It's one of the best Lincoln sites in the area.
6/29/2008 10:15 pm (et) Korky: But Susansweet does the Museum promote tours to see them?6/29/2008 10:15 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile are we on the same wave length tonight ?
6/29/2008 10:15 pm (et) Susansweet: I will let you know Korky after August.6/29/2008 10:15 pm (et) ks: Museum doesn't have a tour of the other places. But it's easily done on your own. Local CVB type places sets up tours IF your group is large enough.
6/29/2008 10:15 pm (et) Korky: Went to New Salem also. After all, I had to see where Lincoln KO'd the Clary Street Boys.6/29/2008 10:16 pm (et) Basecat: Hope all are in agreement. Interesting book to read, and an enjoyable read. Hope all are liking it as much as I am.
6/29/2008 10:16 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Korky, the Law office, Homestead, and State House are all within walking distance, tomb and train station not far away.6/29/2008 10:16 pm (et) mobile_96: Must be Susan.
6/29/2008 10:16 pm (et) Korky: My point being, would the Museum want you to only see the museum? If a choice was given to an interested person, would the Museum promote itself or those key sites?6/29/2008 10:17 pm (et) mobile_96: Been to New Salem twice so far, looking forward to going when the re-enactors are also there.
6/29/2008 10:17 pm (et) Korky: Agree the book was interesting. I read it all.6/29/2008 10:18 pm (et) Babs: The Disney style does attract kids. I did me back in the day. It made me read about Davy Crockett and the Alamo. Then I was mad to find out how much I had been lied to by Disney.
6/29/2008 10:18 pm (et) mobile_96: Korky, don't remember, but think they do promote the other sites.6/29/2008 10:18 pm (et) ks: Heck, no. The museum folks want you to see all that Springfield has to offer. And if one studies the sites, they promote each other.
6/29/2008 10:18 pm (et) Vickie: If your looking for Disney land at the museum you will be disappointed:-)6/29/2008 10:18 pm (et) mobile_96: We keep saying Disney style, but wouldn't multi-media be more accurate??
6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I seem to remember a friend of mine being offered a job at the homestead and would also be working at the other sites. That would lead me to believe that they are connected and tours should be available.6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore comments on Chapter 4??
6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) Korky: I own a photomosaic puzzle of Lincoln's face, molds of his Face and Hands, the 10-book History by Nicolay and Hay, and most of the books on Lincoln. I'll keep studying him my whole life.6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Babs same here , I was a big Disney fan as a kid , grew up with Disneyland near by but have not been such a fan in the last few years.
6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) Korky: The Nicolay and Hay book set is original from the 1800's.6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) ks: Check out http://www.visit-springfieldillinois.com/ and you'll see how much they promote ALL of the sites.
6/29/2008 10:19 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Is the Nicolay and Hay book good. I haven't read it yet but would like to.6/29/2008 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96: I don't have the 10 book history, but do have a fair number of books on Lincoln and the 9 vol. Papers.
6/29/2008 10:20 pm (et) ks: Perhaps "multi-media" is more accurate, mobile. But DISNEY does multi-media exceptionally well.6/29/2008 10:20 pm (et) Susansweet: I went to Springfield the first time as a third grader with my family . Looking forward to going again this August
6/29/2008 10:20 pm (et) Korky: LF, I don't know but is takes up a good part of my book shelf :-)6/29/2008 10:21 pm (et) mobile_96: I also recently picked up Lincoln's Journalist, John Hay's anonymous writings for the Press, 1860-1864.
6/29/2008 10:21 pm (et) Korky: I wonder how many have actually read all 10-books? I bet only the Lincoln scholars have and then I question if there staffers read for them.6/29/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: I have been to the Constitution Center in Philly and it is also multimedia. I learned quite a bit while I was there trying out all the activities
6/29/2008 10:21 pm (et) mobile_96: I agree KS, but intended it to get away from the Cartoonish images connected to Disney.6/29/2008 10:21 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Susan I went a few years ago with our group from the Garfield home. I was awed , overawed, by being there and just walking in his footsteps.
6/29/2008 10:22 pm (et) Korky: Ferguson made a point that it was the hope of the Springfield Tourism board that people would spend a night there. I think the Museum helped them accomplish that goal.6/29/2008 10:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Korky, all my Lincoln books are listed on my website.
6/29/2008 10:22 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: All ten books - there's a project for this discussion group.6/29/2008 10:22 pm (et) Susansweet: I was too as a child Fan. I had told my father's cousin's husband Lincoln was my favorite President , so off we went to see all the Lincoln sites.
6/29/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks all for a fine discussion tonight. Glad the bad weather did not show up as promised. Homework for next week are Chapters 5 & 6. I will not be here as I will be in Gettysburg.
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