Book Chat
Land of Lincoln: Adventures in Abe's America
by
Andrew Ferguson

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 06/22/08 and covered Chapters 1 &  2.

6/22/2008 9:07 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the first chat on Andrew Ferguson's book Land of Lincoln: Adventure's in Abe's America. Reminder, during the chat please refrain from using the PM option. Thanks. Pat will be kicking us off with a question about the Preface.

6/22/2008 9:07 pm (et) ks: This homework was very easy to complete. Love a book that runs that way. ;)

6/22/2008 9:08 pm (et) ks: Okay, thanks, Steve. Tonight we begin Andrew Ferguson’s Land of Lincoln: Adventures in Abe’s America. In the preface Ferguson reveals his personal “association with Lincoln”. I was wondering what each of us could say on that subject? Before we get into the opening chapters, how did any of you learn about Lincoln in your homes, your schools, communities, travels??

6/22/2008 9:08 pm (et) 20thMass: Too long ago to remember for me.

6/22/2008 9:09 pm (et) secret squirrel: Of course in grade school "the great emancipator"

6/22/2008 9:09 pm (et) Babs: Had to memorize GB Address in fifth grade. Punctuation was the hardest part.

6/22/2008 9:09 pm (et) Susansweet: I learned about Lincoln as a primary student the way many do but at the age of 9 my parents took me to Springfield to visit my Dad's cousin. His cousins husband took us around to all the sites related to Lincoln in Springfield . I loved it

6/22/2008 9:10 pm (et) ks: It was easy for me to relate to Ferguson's comment about "inherited an intensely admiring account of Lincoln". I wonder how typical was my experience? Big time commemoration of Lincoln's B-day, retelling of classic Lincoln stories, memorizing Gettysburg address.

6/22/2008 9:10 pm (et) mobile_96: Grade school.

6/22/2008 9:11 pm (et) colreb44: GB address... a few facts ..but not much

6/22/2008 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: Two things here...First visit to Gettysburg in 1973, and seeing where he gave the Gettysburg Address...or the approximate place he did so, and then 1976, Lincoln Memorial and reading the second inaugural on the walls of the monument.

6/22/2008 9:11 pm (et) ks: At nine already? Lucky YOU, Susan. I didn't get to see Springfield until I took my own kids there pre-Manassas muster. By that time I'd done some independent Lincoln reading. Had a more balanced and mature (at least IMO) view point by the time I visited again with some from the chatroom in 2006.

6/22/2008 9:12 pm (et) 20thMass: On school trips we always visited the Lincoln Memorial.

6/22/2008 9:12 pm (et) amhistoryguy: My most personal association with AL came one rainy, chilly morning in Greenbush WI, at a reenactment. Being one of the first, and only spectators there at an early hour, I spent a bit of time speaking with AL where he was set up. After a couple of minutes he said, I need to go to my tent and pick up a blanket, walk with me. As we walked through the Union camp, soldiers snapped to attention as the President and I walked an talked about 1862 Congress, the state of the Union, and I don't remember what all else. It was surreal though, and I'll never forget my trip back in time with AL.

6/22/2008 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: That's why I want to see it all again now.

6/22/2008 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Will just add...the image of the repro pages of Abe's words...LOL...Bought the same set when I was in Gettysburg the first time in 1973...and he described the smell of those remakes to a T, IMHO,

6/22/2008 9:14 pm (et) ks: I never had the chance to purchase such documents, Steve. But I sure saw them in the classroom having been purchased by my teachers.

6/22/2008 9:14 pm (et) Basecat: It was a perfect description, and much like he did...Had them in the desk here as well in my room Pat. :)

6/22/2008 9:15 pm (et) colreb44: lol ks.. me too.

6/22/2008 9:16 pm (et) Basecat: The first book you all recollect reading about Abe?

6/22/2008 9:16 pm (et) Babs: We sell them at my Village or at least we did when I did the buying. I always used them to know how much the markup was at various sites as I knew the wholesale cost.

6/22/2008 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: The D'Anglei book that won a Caldecott award way back in the 30's.

6/22/2008 9:17 pm (et) Babs: The Day Lincoln was Shot by Bishop.

6/22/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: I have my copy I used to read to my students still.

6/22/2008 9:17 pm (et) ks: Oh my....can't recall the title. But it was one of those grade school books that was a juvenile biography. The lob cabin stories, writing by the fireplace, rail splitting, great emancipator....

6/22/2008 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: For those who are old enough to remember, there was a series of history books called the Landmark series aimed at children, and while I can't recall the title or author, it was about the GB Address.

6/22/2008 9:18 pm (et) mobile_96: Probably Lincoln by Donald.

6/22/2008 9:18 pm (et) ks: Now I recall the first book I READ TO MY CHILDREN that concerned Lincoln. Patricia Polacco book (that I've told you about before, Susan). Pink and Sey...read it and couldn't keep from crying as I read aloud.

6/22/2008 9:18 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I think I read the same one ks - focus on "Honest Abe."

6/22/2008 9:19 pm (et) ks: Very much so, Dave.

6/22/2008 9:19 pm (et) cwbksell: Mobile! You weren't a kid when the Donald book came out.

6/22/2008 9:19 pm (et) colreb44: "Honest Abe" that is it

6/22/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: d'Aulaire that's the author and illustrators names.

6/22/2008 9:19 pm (et) Basecat: And for those kids out there who have no idea what coloring books are...Had an AL coloring book as well...and wish I could find it to see if I colored in between the lines. :)

6/22/2008 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: Yes I was.

6/22/2008 9:20 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Think mobile actually shared books with Abe : )

6/22/2008 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: Doesn't matter anyway, that was the 1st full book on Lincoln that I actually read.

6/22/2008 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Don't even get me started on the CW color by number set I had as well...Had a lot of fun with that as well. :)

6/22/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: d'Aulaire told all the tales.

6/22/2008 9:21 pm (et) colreb44: Yes base ..I remember those coloring books well.

6/22/2008 9:21 pm (et) mobile_96: amhg, seem to remember 1 book Abe never returned.

6/22/2008 9:21 pm (et) cwbksell: Yes, I remember you saying you are now in your second (or is it the third) childhood. :o)

6/22/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Think I must have read a Children's biography of Lincoln too I read them all

6/22/2008 9:22 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I recall having an Abe Lincoln comic book too.

6/22/2008 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: nope, never left the 1st childhood

6/22/2008 9:22 pm (et) ks: I'm feeling like I must have had a deprived childhood. ;)

6/22/2008 9:23 pm (et) mobile_96: amhg, one of the illustrated (comic) history series from Way back, if I remember correctly.

6/22/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: One last from me on the preface...I remember seeing through my eyes just how huge the Lincoln Memorial was when I first visited it in 1976. I remember walking up the steps, counting them as I went...and tipping my hat towards Abe ala Mr. Smith. :)

6/22/2008 9:23 pm (et) amhistoryguy: That's what I was thinking mobile.

6/22/2008 9:23 pm (et) colreb44: lol @mobile and ks.

6/22/2008 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: Might have been one of those Classic illustrated comics.

6/22/2008 9:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Thats the one I was thinking Susan.

6/22/2008 9:24 pm (et) ks: Oh, oh...I have a Lincoln Memorial story. But it can wait if we've moved on. :)

6/22/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Figured you were Mobile I had many of them.

6/22/2008 9:25 pm (et) Basecat: Tell us the story Pat. :)

6/22/2008 9:26 pm (et) ks: If you insist. ;) Was as an adult visiting the Lincoln Memorial. Very crowded. LOTS of tourists with people milling about taking pictures. Then amongst the masses was a visitor who began reciting from memory the speeches engraved on the walls....

6/22/2008 9:27 pm (et) ks: ...repeating them in a very thick Russian sounding accent. People became very hushed and focused as the young man recited with feeling. I was so hugely impressed that someone from another country found the words so important. Impressed the heck out of me.

6/22/2008 9:28 pm (et) colreb44: Yes ks that gives me chills just thinking about it.

6/22/2008 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet: Good story ks.

6/22/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: And it is a good way to remind us that at times we take for granted the freedom we are used to here.

6/22/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore comments on the preface??

6/22/2008 9:30 pm (et) colreb44: Yes we do.

6/22/2008 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: OK...Chapter one. And yes this a question and comments from a Yankee, and I do not wish to upset anyone. If I do so, take me to task, and I will answer every query.

6/22/2008 9:33 pm (et) ks: For shotgun's sake I'll mention the title of that chapter... ;)
Chapter One – When Lincoln Came Back to Richmond

6/22/2008 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: What's with SCV members?? What is their real agenda? Comments made in the first chapter "When Lincoln Came Back to Richmond" startle me. I keep being told the main job of the group is to honor their ancestor's who fought in the war. And that they do, but just once I wish I could meet a member of said organization, who does not look at only one side of the CW. When the hell was Abe rich?? But there it is in balcak and white in the book...he was rich...I could go on and on, but would like to hear your thoughts on this issue.

6/22/2008 9:38 pm (et) secret squirrel: Not only was he not rich, but tried to pay back the overspending Mary did in the White House out of his own pocket

6/22/2008 9:39 pm (et) ks: :) This was a tough chapter for me, Steve. But then I tend to bristle or completely back away when I see comments from DiLorenzo. Watched the Book TV or C-Span segments concerning "The Real Lincoln" and found so much that left me uncomfortable and unhappy. It wasn't that I minded being challenged by his version of the story of Lincoln. I simply found it to be so incredibly biased.

6/22/2008 9:39 pm (et) ks: The entire chapter with the views of Bragdon Bowling and then Bob Kline concerning the installation of the sculpture were such vivid Lincoln Hater/Lincoln Lover accounts.

6/22/2008 9:40 pm (et) secret squirrel: I haven't seen that on the web, but i am a bit uncomfortable with these allegations myself. when you start to humanize a historic figure, it can change the way you feel about a person.

6/22/2008 9:41 pm (et) Basecat: Will just add to things about their mantra...War was no about slavery, and the boys were fighting for their homes...and yet conveniently left out is while most southern soldiers did not have slaves, their participation supported their states governments on slavery. Other thing that gets me...selective memory.. They mention how bad Abe was arresting folks for no reason and issuing writs of Habeas Corpus...and yet Davis did the same thing...

6/22/2008 9:42 pm (et) amhistoryguy: There is a not so fine line between history and heritage groups, and modern political agenda groups. The line gets crossed most often it seems by group like SCV. It is very unfortunate that they cannot separate history and heritage from their modern political agenda.

6/22/2008 9:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: Oh, another thing. It was mentioned that R. E. Lee freed his father in law's slaves right away. right, took a supreme court decision for that.

6/22/2008 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: Their problem is, they are only interested in confederate heritage, not Southern heritage, they seem to believe that the only southern history took place in 1860-1865.

6/22/2008 9:43 pm (et) ks: I'm curious about how you all responded to the various ideas put forth about the appropriateness (or lack thereof) for the Lincoln statue being placed at Tredagar...

6/22/2008 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: This is the same argument that went on all last week on Joe's discussion board between two members.

6/22/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: I have seen the statue . It is a wonderful statue. I am not sure how I feel about it being in Richmond . Except he and Tad did visit there so why not.

6/22/2008 9:44 pm (et) ks: Or placed in Richmond, actually. Not so much the specific location in Richmond.

6/22/2008 9:44 pm (et) cwbksell: Lincoln was a prominent and very respected lawyer for many years in Springfield. By the days standards he was not poor. He spent $1500.00 to have the roof raised on his one story house to what it is today, A two story house. Most of his money came from representing the railroad interests.

6/22/2008 9:45 pm (et) colreb44: The problem that is being described here is blind bias, while all people have a certian amount of bias, whether they will admit it or not.. these examples are blind bias which there is no excuse for.

6/22/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: cwbksell...Guess I should have clarified my comments...Read to me that those who said he was rich did so intimating he always was.

6/22/2008 9:47 pm (et) mobile_96: But, then again, he wasn't nearly as rich as was implied by Brag.

6/22/2008 9:47 pm (et) ks: How about a reaction to the comment from Moran (president of US Historical Society) stating that the Lincoln statue at Tredegar is "the most important statue of Lincoln anywhere in the world"??

6/22/2008 9:47 pm (et) secret squirrel: From their viewpoint, maybe that visit was humiliating. explains the tearing down of lincoln....and the commanders responsible for victory.

6/22/2008 9:48 pm (et) ks: Whatever he meant, I, too, was struck by the "rich" comment and thought it seemed an exaggeration.

6/22/2008 9:48 pm (et) Babs: I think Moran's agenda is to sell replica statues.

6/22/2008 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: Didn't Mary have the second floor added while Lincoln was away from home?

6/22/2008 9:49 pm (et) ks: That's what I'd read, Susan.

6/22/2008 9:49 pm (et) secret squirrel: I don't know why it would be the most important Lincoln statue. the location is another matter.

6/22/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: As I read the chapter, and knowing how much we seem to talk about Abe in here, we should read a book on Davis, and chat about it.

6/22/2008 9:49 pm (et) mobile_96: Don't agree with him, unless he's referring to it even being allowed in Richmond.

6/22/2008 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: I think the reason he thinks it is the most important is it is the one that is at eye level. You can even sit down next to him.

6/22/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: And Tad.

6/22/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: Good idea Steve.

6/22/2008 9:50 pm (et) secret squirrel: You can sit down with him and Tad in the former confederate capitol.

6/22/2008 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Right SS.

6/22/2008 9:51 pm (et) cwbksell: I forced myself to read DiLorenzo's book The Real Lincoln just to find out what these Lincoln-haters thought and found that at least 95% of what he said was pure nonsense and factually untrue. Another book you might consider to get the flavor of these people would be Confederates in the Attic by Tony Horwitz. The hardcover is out of print but I still have a few soft covers available at $16.00 postage paid. :o)

6/22/2008 9:51 pm (et) Babs: Didn't we already read one on Davis? or was it just one on his wife?

6/22/2008 9:51 pm (et) mobile_96: Have to agree with you Babs, believe he has far more interest in Money than History.

6/22/2008 9:51 pm (et) ks: Wouldn't see it as the most important simply because it's smaller and more approachable. And when I see a statue one can sit with...sorry, but am reminded of the Ronald McDonald on a bench that used to sit in our Wal-Mart. Yes, you could have your pic taken with it too.

6/22/2008 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...You make a great point...Both sides of the debate have no problem selling stuff on Abe...God knows we all need an Abe Bobble head doll.:)

6/22/2008 9:52 pm (et) secret squirrel: As if the Yankees didn't do enough already, now no stars and bars, Arthur Ashe....Lincoln.

6/22/2008 9:52 pm (et) mobile_96: Confederates in the attic is a excellent book.

6/22/2008 9:52 pm (et) ks: Isn't that amazing though, cwbksell? I'm referring to your assessing 95% to be untrue and the fact that so many buy into it anyway. My guess is that it's offering a certain audience what they WANT to see.

6/22/2008 9:53 pm (et) secret squirrel: I read that, oh boy...

6/22/2008 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Loved Confederates in the attic

6/22/2008 9:53 pm (et) amhistoryguy: There seems to be a Lincoln for everyone - The Lincoln we spoke of earlier, "Honest Abe," the Lincoln for the Russian tourist, a Lincoln for Lawyers, and perhaps, a Southern Lincoln in Richmond, for a reconstructed South. I don't know if I said what I meant, or if it makes sense.

6/22/2008 9:53 pm (et) ks: We read CITA for a book chat some years ago, cwbksell. Very animated discussions.

6/22/2008 9:53 pm (et) mobile_96: Exactly right KS, and someone with a degree, even though its not a history degree.

6/22/2008 9:53 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Lawyers and Politicians certainly have their own Lincoln as well.

6/22/2008 9:54 pm (et) Babs: AS do used car and appliance salesmen for Presidents' Day sales.

6/22/2008 9:54 pm (et) mobile_96: It also gives them answers without having to take the time to really find the truth

6/22/2008 9:55 pm (et) ks: As long as we're speaking of Richmond statuary...what are your thoughts on the appropriateness of Arthur Ashe being on Monument Row? Another interesting account of thoughts in this chapter.

6/22/2008 9:55 pm (et) ks: Good point, Babs. ;)

6/22/2008 9:55 pm (et) secret squirrel: Because the South now has transplants etc. maybe some feel they are losing their identity.

6/22/2008 9:56 pm (et) Babs: I think they should have put the Arthur Ashe statue at the tennis courts where he would not have been allowed to play as a youth.

6/22/2008 9:56 pm (et) Basecat: Glad you brought this up Pat...Still trying to find out just where Mr. Leak would have this statue placed if his vote was the one who counted...Am guessing Petersburg, but I digress.

6/22/2008 9:56 pm (et) ks: I would be the first to admit that I have no idea of the mindset or possible agenda for Richmond politicians. I did find it interesting the persecution that the SCV spokesmen had when speaking about both of the statues...Lincoln and placement of Ashe.

6/22/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Good point Babs.

6/22/2008 9:57 pm (et) ks: I hope Mike reads this chat log and adds his two cents...being a Richmonder (or Midlothian-er...wherever he lives these days).

6/22/2008 9:58 pm (et) secret squirrel: babs I agree, but that comment about Jefferson Davis "bidding" on Ashe...that's why he probably needs to be there.

6/22/2008 9:58 pm (et) ks: Meant the persecution that the SCV felt and relayed when speaking of the statues.

6/22/2008 9:59 pm (et) ks: The irony sure does impact one when viewing it there amongst the Confederate heroes. And , ss, that comment stood out to me as well.

6/22/2008 10:00 pm (et) secret squirrel: I can't help it; hard for me to put myself in a southern state of mind; Yankee that i am.

6/22/2008 10:00 pm (et) secret squirrel: So, i try to be open minded.

6/22/2008 10:01 pm (et) ks: Another bit of language that struck me in this chapter (or was it elsewhere?) of the signage in Springfield changing over the years from "Lincoln Shrines" to "Lincoln Sites".

6/22/2008 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Know we are spending way too much time on this chapter, but it just bothered me. Reminded me of the visit to SCV HQ last year...and just don't get it. Have never been one to say the Confederate flag should not be flown, and made a big stink when that proposal actually came up in Gettysburg...but reading Leak's comments about how that flag is hidden from view at the Daughters of the Confederacy HQ, first thing I thought of, the Stars and Stripes should be flown there as well.

6/22/2008 10:03 pm (et) secret squirrel: you know, history is re evaluated with each generation and their beliefs; it is true.

6/22/2008 10:04 pm (et) mobile_96: But the effort to show the South Was Right has been going on since 1865.

6/22/2008 10:04 pm (et) Vickie: enters the chatroom.

6/22/2008 10:05 pm (et) secret squirrel: A main issue here is slavery and the dehumanization of an entire race of people; we can dance around it some more though.

6/22/2008 10:05 pm (et) Basecat: SS..Point I am trying to make, in my Northern brought up way...the war did not occur because of one side. It occured because both sides allowed it, and yes wanted it to happen. That's my problem with the SCV, as they don't get that.

6/22/2008 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: Like I said earlier...we need to do a book chat on Davis...Know it would probably help me to understand him better as well.

6/22/2008 10:07 pm (et) colreb44: imho anyone who studies ABe seriously ..will come away with a much different understanding of his leadership, loyalty , and love for his country.. one think is for sure.. it was a good thing for the US that he was the president during the civil war.

6/22/2008 10:08 pm (et) ks: I would like to do a Davis book chat. Have wanted to read that book by...Cooper?? for a long time. Sure there are others that can be suggested as well.

6/22/2008 10:08 pm (et) secret squirrel: Clever for sure, the right man at the right time.

6/22/2008 10:08 pm (et) mobile_96: Believe one by cooper would be a good one.

6/22/2008 10:08 pm (et) Basecat: colreb44.. Well said, and agree completely with your point.

6/22/2008 10:09 pm (et) Basecat: That's the one I was thinking of Mobile.

6/22/2008 10:10 pm (et) Basecat: OK...Let's move to Herndon, and chapter 2.. "Billy Herndon and the Inner Mr. L.".

6/22/2008 10:10 pm (et) mobile_96: Same here KS.

6/22/2008 10:11 pm (et) Basecat: Herndon...Lincoln historian or the Rona Barrett of the 19th Century?? Your thoughts on his research?

6/22/2008 10:11 pm (et) Susansweet: I was amazed at where many of the stories had originally come from.

6/22/2008 10:11 pm (et) ks: And the author was at New Salem because Richmond shook him up. :)

6/22/2008 10:14 pm (et) Babs: I didn't remember that Abe's step-mom was still alive and had been interviewed.

6/22/2008 10:14 pm (et) ks: It's no surprise to anyone who's done a Lincoln book chat with me before to learn that Herndon isn't high on my list. *ptooey! Dirty Dog Herndon* ;) I did SO love a section on page 47 which I'll quote.

"The Lincoln marriage, like your marriage and mine, was a mystery to everyone but the two people involved directly, and maybe to them too." YES! Herndon's psychoanalyzing their relationship in other books has been so...irritating to me. So much of that set in motion by the "most influential" Billy Herndon.

6/22/2008 10:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I didn't know that either Babs.

6/22/2008 10:14 pm (et) secret squirrel: I thought she had survived him, didn't know about the interview.

6/22/2008 10:15 pm (et) ks: We read of it previously in some book. For me at least, the titles blend unless I definitely love or hate the book.

6/22/2008 10:16 pm (et) Babs: It was In Ishbel Ross's book on Mary.

6/22/2008 10:17 pm (et) Babs: Ishbel did not like Herndon either.

6/22/2008 10:17 pm (et) Basecat: Have read this before, but the best comment gleamed by Herndon was the the thoughts of George Spears, and I paraphrase...Had he known he was going to be POTUS, he would have paid more attention.:)

6/22/2008 10:18 pm (et) ks: Babs, the more Lincoln books I read, the more I appreciate Ishbel Ross. :) Amongst all the floral descriptions, there's good info.

6/22/2008 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: I don't like Herndon either...who cares how Abe ate an apple?? Not me.:)

6/22/2008 10:19 pm (et) Babs: I remember that she had me convinced the Ann Rutledge story was not true. Now others so it is true. I don't knwo what to believe.

6/22/2008 10:19 pm (et) ks: That was the truth of the matter, Steve. And Spears had no inclination to embellish or make something up.

6/22/2008 10:20 pm (et) secret squirrel: you know, i didn't realize we had another marble man on our hands here

6/22/2008 10:20 pm (et) ks: As I read about the apple eating I found myself wishing that Spielberg would have Neeson eating an apple in the Abe appropriate manner if the movie's ever being made. ;)

6/22/2008 10:21 pm (et) Babs: I guess it's good that he interviewed all of those people, how can we tell which ones were ful of it? Where is the "truthfulness"?

6/22/2008 10:22 pm (et) ks: He is a marble man, but I think he's been made more human and fallible that REL. That's MHO. ISTM that Lincoln bashing is much more acceptable.

6/22/2008 10:22 pm (et) secret squirrel: Oh, goodness, don't say anything about R. E Lee. you are right.

6/22/2008 10:23 pm (et) Babs: Roy Blount Jr. made REL human.

6/22/2008 10:23 pm (et) secret squirrel: But I don't idolize R. E. Lee, Jefferson or Washington, so Lincoln bashing bothers me. :)

6/22/2008 10:23 pm (et) Babs: Talked about him liking his toes tickled.

6/22/2008 10:23 pm (et) ks: Appreciate the point made by Ferguson that nearly every historian declares the intention to "get beyond the myth" of Lincoln and then, when setting about the task, he/she finds Herndon's "treasure trove" waiting to be searched. And Herndon's got material that could fit anyone's interpretations.

6/22/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: Babs, I agree with Ferguson's take on trying to learn more of the inner AL..Can't happen and yet countless pages have been used to try and figure it out.

6/22/2008 10:23 pm (et) secret squirrel: Did you read the book by Elizabeth Brown Pryor??? Awesome about Lee .

6/22/2008 10:24 pm (et) ks: Having your toes tickled isn't negative. :) And ss, no, have not read that title...yet.

6/22/2008 10:25 pm (et) secret squirrel: Nothing wrong with that, but she does a great job; negatively and positively.

6/22/2008 10:25 pm (et) Babs: Blount didn't bash Lee, but made him human.

6/22/2008 10:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Sorry guys I am fading . Long drive today and another tomorrow. Good night all

6/22/2008 10:26 pm (et) Susansweet: logs off.

6/22/2008 10:27 pm (et) colreb44: Again imho.. When comparing REL to AL there are many similarities...while their backgrounds are quite different.. the love for, devotion to, and service compare.

6/22/2008 10:28 pm (et) ks: Andrew Ferguson's picture on the back reminds me of HankC. Not that it's relevant or anything. ;)

6/22/2008 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: Guess my last is how historians use stuff from Herndon, as in the passage about Billy Thompson...Just shows how folks accent what they deem to be important.

6/22/2008 10:30 pm (et) Babs: I hope this book gets to be more fun. First chapter was depressing. Second one was kind of dry.

6/22/2008 10:30 pm (et) ks: Have yet to read a book that I felt was less than making Lee out as almost god-like. I appreciate the suggestions.

6/22/2008 10:32 pm (et) ks: I perked up so much at page 47 that I found chapter two anything but dry, Babs. ;) But I hear from others that upcoming chapters are good.

6/22/2008 10:33 pm (et) cwbksell: I recall doing a book show near Chicago in 1991 when Alan Nolan's book Lee Considered first came out. A fellow passed by my table and said Nolan should never have been able to publish that book. "Lee was a great man, but not the man tradition portrays." (Nolan)

6/22/2008 10:33 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...While the first chapter bothered me, and the second included insights on Herndon that I have read before, that said it was well written...and had know idea teachers today prefer to be called educators. That you are...and should be called teachers and educators...:)

6/22/2008 10:34 pm (et) mobile_96: I found chapter 2 to be interesting also.

6/22/2008 10:35 pm (et) Basecat: cwbksell....I guess in my long quest to understand the CW, I try to read everything I can...from both sides, and learn from their mistakes. Radical idea I know, but I was educated in Ohio...so that explains everything. :)

6/22/2008 10:36 pm (et) cwbksell: It's the sign of the times. It's not janitor, it's Maintenance Manager. :o)

6/22/2008 10:37 pm (et) Basecat: Nothing bothers me more when folks of like minds tell me not to read this or that on the CW...because it is wrong etc. I read it anyway, so I can offer up my opinion. That's the way it should be done.

6/22/2008 10:37 pm (et) colreb44: I like that method Base.

6/22/2008 10:37 pm (et) ks: I also don't recall having read any of Lincoln's off-color jokes. Have seen ref. to them, but not the actual jokes.

6/22/2008 10:38 pm (et) mobile_96: 1st I've seen of them also.

6/22/2008 10:38 pm (et) secret squirrel: I look at our actions in the end; I have done or thought some things I wish I could take back myself.

6/22/2008 10:39 pm (et) Basecat: colreb44...IMHO...Only way to figure out in my own way just what the hell happened 140 odd years ago..

6/22/2008 10:39 pm (et) colreb44: Good point secret squirrel

6/22/2008 10:40 pm (et) colreb44: yes Base.. I agree.

6/22/2008 10:40 pm (et) cwbksell: Basecat: And you should. I believe the same. How can you judge history if you only look at one side of the story? That is where these Southern folks go wrong. Their ancestors had a rough time dealing with loosing the Civil War and the only thing they can do is blame it on those won won. I might mention, while they hated Lincoln, they hated General Sherman even more.

6/22/2008 10:40 pm (et) ks: The Ethan Allan/English outhouse joke even amused me. ;)

6/22/2008 10:41 pm (et) secret squirrel: I agree, but i think we look at it one-sided too. we too, are right.

6/22/2008 10:41 pm (et) Basecat: Pat..:) And that one I wish really did happen...LOL..:)

6/22/2008 10:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: And because we are so right, we have to go down there all these years later and put Lincoln there. i don't agree with the south, but understand ...I think.

6/22/2008 10:42 pm (et) mobile_96: laughed out loud on that one KS.

6/22/2008 10:43 pm (et) ks: shotgun's got a good quote about truth that is probably on his website, but he throws out here from time to time. Something along the lines of there being your truth and my truth and THE truth and the chances of all 3 being the same are next to impossible. Not said as well as stated by shotgun, no doubt.

6/22/2008 10:43 pm (et) cwbksell: I have read a lot of books about Lincoln's humor and never did I run across anything that was anyway on the raunchy side. I'm sure if he had told any of that type, people like DeLorenzo would surely have picked up on it.

6/22/2008 10:43 pm (et) Basecat: cwbksell... Hard for me to understand 140 plus years after the fact finger pointing still occurs...and that there are those who blame our problems today on what happened back then...Crazy IMHO, and stupid as well.

6/22/2008 10:44 pm (et) colreb44: cwbksell... I am a southern.. and while i must confess at one time I had a hatred for crump...after reading and studying about him.. i can't help but admire the man.

6/22/2008 10:44 pm (et) secret squirrel: hmnmm, debatable.

6/22/2008 10:45 pm (et) cwbksell: Sherman lived in Louisiana before the war and respected the people there at the time.

6/22/2008 10:45 pm (et) secret squirrel: there are lots of traits in some of the southern generals i find admirable as well; i mean, you have to look at the good and the bad.

6/22/2008 10:45 pm (et) Basecat: colreb44..That's what I mean...study both sides...and don't get stuck on an idea that one side was the only wrong purveyor of a horrible war that decimated a generation of Americans.

6/22/2008 10:45 pm (et) Babs: Topic for another book chat.

6/22/2008 10:46 pm (et) Babs: Sherman that is.

6/22/2008 10:47 pm (et) colreb44: that is absoluty true Base.

6/22/2008 10:49 pm (et) Basecat: Homework for next week will be Chapters 4 & 5...I thank all for the interesting discussion this evening, and hope all are enjoying reading the book as I am.

GO TO BOOK CHAT FOR CHAPTERS 3 & 4

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