Book Chat
Jefferson Davis, American
William J. Cooper

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 09/28/08 and covered Chapters 16 & 17.

9/28/2008 9:10 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the Sunday Night Book Chat. Tonight's discussion will be on Chapters 16 & 17 of William J. Cooper, jr's book Jefferson Davis, American Reminder....Please refrain from using the PM function during the chat. Thanks.

9/28/2008 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Lets begin by discussing where JD finds himself as Chapter 16 I Have Not Sunk Under My Trials begins. Comments and thoughts?

9/28/2008 9:13 pm (et) Babs: I didn't realize he was only shackled for five days. I assumed it was longer.

9/28/2008 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I was surprised the soldiers were allowed to loot the Davis's things.

9/28/2008 9:14 pm (et) secret squirrel: Confused about the consequence and legalities of putting JD on trial.

9/28/2008 9:14 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I thought the chapter moved very slowly with everyone trying to get Davis out of prison and the government trying to keep him there. But, I guess it moved slowly for Davis too.

9/28/2008 9:14 pm (et) calcav: We've seen the casemate cell. Not a pleasant place to stay shackles or no shackles.

9/28/2008 9:15 pm (et) Susansweet: I was just there last year.

9/28/2008 9:16 pm (et) Babs: The night light would have been tough.

9/28/2008 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: I think what we know of his prison time was from that book mentioned written by Dr. Craven and others.

9/28/2008 9:16 pm (et) mobile_96: And guards walking back and forth and in and out of the rooms.

9/28/2008 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: And it says it presented him a a victim of inhumane treatment.

9/28/2008 9:17 pm (et) calcav: The constant soldier "companionship " and nightlite had to have been tough.

9/28/2008 9:17 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I was surprised it took so long for them to release him. Also that he had so few visitors.

9/28/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: I think the person to really admire in the whole thing is Varina.

9/28/2008 9:18 pm (et) mobile_96: Considering the politics going on during that period, surprised he got out as quickly as he did.

9/28/2008 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: Main reason why he was kept so long, IMHO, was they were trying to pin Abe's assassination on him, as in he had to have some part in it.

9/28/2008 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: She held her family together as best she could and constantly campaigned to get him released and not tried

9/28/2008 9:18 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Had a man in our Milwaukee CWRT whose father was one of Davis' guards. Lt. Upham - got along well with Davis, Davis gave him a few items, candle holder etc when Davis got out of prison. Those items would be brought to our dinner meeting from time to time.

9/28/2008 9:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, Susan, I agree. I got her book from the library but hope I have the right title.

9/28/2008 9:19 pm (et) calcav: I found that I had little respect for JD during the war years but it began to return during this chapter.

9/28/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: How cool Dave.

9/28/2008 9:19 pm (et) Babs: Dave, Wow!

9/28/2008 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: It's the newest one LF . Steve who is the author?

9/28/2008 9:20 pm (et) calcav: That's so cool Dave!-nita

9/28/2008 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Also shows what a lousy President Johnson was, and how unqualified for the job, IMHO. He made things worse as time wore on. Highly doubt if Abe would have acted that way, and continue to say what Booth did on that April day really changed the history of this country.

9/28/2008 9:20 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Dave, that's awesome!

9/28/2008 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Calcav I do have some respect returning for his behavior

9/28/2008 9:21 pm (et) Basecat: You mean the Varina bio.?

9/28/2008 9:21 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I can't see Lincoln putting Davis in prison at all.

9/28/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve the thing is Seward and Stanton would not have been able to pull the things they did if Lincoln was round still

9/28/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes Steve.

9/28/2008 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: LF, and you can see what he would have done if you examine the words he said after Lee surrendered.

9/28/2008 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: And Henry Wirtz gets the shaft or the noose.

9/28/2008 9:22 pm (et) calcav: I agree Susan. 

9/28/2008 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe they couldn't have, but what about the congress.

9/28/2008 9:22 pm (et) 4eyes: he said 'let 'em up easy"
9/28/2008 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: NOT saying Andersonville wasn't bad.

9/28/2008 9:23 pm (et) Babs: We read the Ishbel Ross bio of Varina in here years ago. I recall this part of her life she becomes a bulldog working continually to free Jeff.

9/28/2008 9:23 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The author of this book is Joan E. Cashin "First Lady of the Confederacy". Don't want to start it if it's not the right one.

9/28/2008 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: Don't know mobile.

9/28/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: That's the on LF.

9/28/2008 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: It is the one I read Fan and I really liked it.

9/28/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: It is the latest one.

9/28/2008 9:24 pm (et) amhistoryguy: From stories I heard, I always thought that it seemed like Davis was pretty well treated for a man in prison in that time period. I wish I could remember some of the specific stories, but it seemed as though since the guards were pretty much his only outside contact, they had some consideration for his needs, their wives baking and such for him. Those are the tales that were shared with us.

9/28/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Congress wanted to merit out punishment, and did the best they could.

9/28/2008 9:25 pm (et) calcav: Johnson really was trying to let them up easy. All but Davis. If he had pardoned Davis from the git go Stanton and company would have hung Johnson next to Wirtz.

9/28/2008 9:25 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Cool. Will begin it tonight. Thanks.

9/28/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Dave that seems to be what I have read and what this books says.

9/28/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Think you are right Calcav.

9/28/2008 9:26 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yeah, cal, why did congress continually make an exception for Davis. If they didn't want t try him, it just sort of made them look foolish keeping him there for no apparent reason.

9/28/2008 9:26 pm (et) mobile_96: Will agree Tom.

9/28/2008 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: We had a speaker at the round table who did the Catholic connection to the Confederacy. The Pope of Rome sent Davis a crown of Thorns.

9/28/2008 9:27 pm (et) 20thMass: They probably knew they couldn't convict him but wanted him to be punished.

9/28/2008 9:27 pm (et) mobile_96: They wanted to try him, but couldn't figure out How, or Where.

9/28/2008 9:27 pm (et) Susansweet: I think so Coly.

9/28/2008 9:27 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: A crown of thorns. Just what he needed.

9/28/2008 9:27 pm (et) Susansweet: And Mobile.

9/28/2008 9:27 pm (et) Basecat: IIRC, some wanted to try Lee as punish him.

9/28/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: I believe it is in the Museum of the Confederacy collection still.

9/28/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Yep and Grant put a stop to that.

9/28/2008 9:28 pm (et) 4eyes: I think they were punished enough. The South was a wreck.

9/28/2008 9:28 pm (et) Basecat: As for Davis's treatment at Fort Monroe, was a lot more lenient than say what some of the ex-Confederates stuck in Prison in Boston were put through.

9/28/2008 9:29 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right, but if they tried JD and Lee, then what about everyone else?

9/28/2008 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: Trying to remember if Ewell was stuck in the Prison in Boston for some time...I think he was.

9/28/2008 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: Interesting how when he is under extreme pressure that is when all of his illness gets really bad.

9/28/2008 9:30 pm (et) calcav: You nailed the argument SS. If they tried Lee they had to put every ex-Confederate on the stand.

9/28/2008 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: I think so Steve.

9/28/2008 9:30 pm (et) Babs: Davis was probably safer at Ft. Monroe thanout and about until the suspicions that he was in on Lincoln's assassination simmered down.

9/28/2008 9:30 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right, so actually JD is no worse than anyone else.

9/28/2008 9:31 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: So Davis was sent to prison and Lee was made president of a university. Don't understand the difference.

9/28/2008 9:31 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...IIRC...Don Pfanz's book on Ewell is where I read that. Had no clue about it.

9/28/2008 9:31 pm (et) 4eyes: Grant was a soldier and so where his adversaries many of whom he knew well.

9/28/2008 9:31 pm (et) secret squirrel: JD had good legal defense and if the us prosecuted it wouldn't end with JD.

9/28/2008 9:32 pm (et) Basecat: 4eyes...when you think on it...Grant was a voice of reason during that turbulent time...

9/28/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: He was held a prisoner at Fort Warren til July 1865

9/28/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Just checked.

9/28/2008 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks Susan.

9/28/2008 9:33 pm (et) 4eyes: Most soldiers are not the politicians the politico's react to what the populace want.

9/28/2008 9:33 pm (et) calcav: Big difference between Lee and Davis. Lee was first and last a soldier. JD was a high ranking US politician who led a devastating rebellion. Too many people wanted his head.

9/28/2008 9:34 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Ewell was captured April 6, at Sayler's Creek, imprisoned at Fort Warren in Boston Harbor til July 1865

9/28/2008 9:34 pm (et) 4eyes: Sue where was Fort Warren?

9/28/2008 9:34 pm (et) secret squirrel: But the commonality; both took arms against the us.

9/28/2008 9:34 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Like Susan said : )

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Boston Harbor.

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Well Dave you added captured at Sayler's Creek.

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) 4eyes: Wonder if they ate "baked beans"

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) Babs: An island? Is it still there?

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) secret squirrel: No consistency in punishments.

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: SS, that's what I'm getting at. And they were both responsible for commanding the troops and making the decisions. Davis listened to Lee.

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes it is a national park.

9/28/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: And it is an island in Boston Harbor.

9/28/2008 9:36 pm (et) calcav: Lee did take up arms, this is true. But he was never closely associated with the politics of the Confederacy.

9/28/2008 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: Cal Cav, Very true, and worst mistake Davis made after Richmond fell was to continue to keep the Confederacy going. Riled up many in the North. Interesting to read of Davis being paraded through Union troops after he was caught, and how the soldiers just booed the hell out of him when they saw him.

9/28/2008 9:36 pm (et) secret squirrel: He didn't have to calcav.

9/28/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Lee surrendered, Davis had to be captured after a chase.

9/28/2008 9:37 pm (et) Basecat: 4 eyes...Just going on what I remember from reading the Pfanz book, but the food they were given really could not be called food, and IIRC, they were allowed i1 hour a day outside their cells to walk around.

9/28/2008 9:37 pm (et) secret squirrel: Ok Susan but....

9/28/2008 9:38 pm (et) 4eyes: Dressed in woman's clothes.

9/28/2008 9:38 pm (et) amhistoryguy: At some point there is an advantage to maintaining order if you have leaders who will promote compliance with the Union, as Lee did, as opposed to locking up all the leaders and stimulating more aggressive action by the people.

9/28/2008 9:38 pm (et) secret squirrel: They were both as guilty both swore to defend the constitution yada yada.

9/28/2008 9:38 pm (et) Babs: 4, I think that was suggested but not actually done.

9/28/2008 9:38 pm (et) secret squirrel: And all their friends too.

9/28/2008 9:38 pm (et) Susansweet: He was not dressed in women's clothing he had a shawl thrown over him.

9/28/2008 9:39 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Susan has a point about Davis having to be captured and trying to keep the Confederacy alive after the surrender.

9/28/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Those leaders were scattering to the four winds it seemed .

9/28/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: The soldiers were surrendering their arms and going home.

9/28/2008 9:40 pm (et) mobile_96: All were afraid of being hung.

9/28/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly.

9/28/2008 9:40 pm (et) secret squirrel: I don't understand that point. if it meant so much, why didn't they try him on that?

9/28/2008 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: Again the question of the Constitution comes up...and keep saying that once any who supported secession, lost any chance to use the Constitution for their protection.

9/28/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: Soldiers were done and needed to go plant their crops.

9/28/2008 9:41 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yet, they were pardoned.

9/28/2008 9:41 pm (et) calcav: SS, I'm really not disagreeing with you. With my own military background I have a hard time justifying Lee was right in going against his oath to the US.

9/28/2008 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: SS...which to me makes no sense..:)

9/28/2008 9:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: Not just Lee, look at all the West Pointers.

9/28/2008 9:42 pm (et) 20thMass: What actually would have been accomplished if Davis and the High up generals be tried for treason?

9/28/2008 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: Except, Base, we have the issue of Lincoln actually considering none of the Southern states, ergo-the people, of being Out of the Union.

9/28/2008 9:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: A legal nightmare; if we can see inconsistencies think about the federal legal team.

9/28/2008 9:42 pm (et) 20thMass: I mean accomplished.

9/28/2008 9:43 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...which is a very good point...and makes you wonder how he would have handled the aftermath if he had the chance to do so.

9/28/2008 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: Just holding Davis in jail makes him a martyr to the southern cause. Imagine what would have happened if he had been tried and condemned.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) calcav: SO if you don't pardon them what do you do with them? The North fought for 4 years to restore the union. How do you restore it if the defeated soldiers are not allowed back into the fold?

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) 4eyes: I don't see anyone's argument here.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: All we have is how he told some of the gulf states how he'd recognize their states again.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: Good question.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right, see LINCOLN already had that figured out.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: The idea was to bring them back into the states.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: That's a major point Cal.

9/28/2008 9:44 pm (et) Basecat: Coly...A very good question...Nothing good would have came from it, IMHO...Pandora's box and shows the insane reasoning of some in the US Government who wanted that to happen.

9/28/2008 9:45 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: That was part of the problem, Susan. The government didn't think they could get a conviction in Virginia. I don't think so either.

9/28/2008 9:45 pm (et) Babs: Susan, just what I was about to say. I think that is why they dallied so long. Make him a martyr? or pardon him? Either way you piss off a lot of voters.

9/28/2008 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: Catch 22 which wasn't invented yet.

9/28/2008 9:45 pm (et) mobile_96: SS, problem was getting Congress to "re-admit" the new congressmen of the reconstructed states.

9/28/2008 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: Readmit states that the Union said hadn't left.

9/28/2008 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: But now they had to be reconstructed.

9/28/2008 9:46 pm (et) calcav: Excellent point Susan.

9/28/2008 9:46 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yep and here JD couldn't wait to argue the rights of the states to secede.

9/28/2008 9:47 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Didn't the book say that the southern states had not been re-admitted into the congress at that time?

9/28/2008 9:47 pm (et) mobile_96: Takes at least one of several point to prove treason, 1. to admit to it. and 2. 2 witnesses.

9/28/2008 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore thoughts on this Chapter??

9/28/2008 9:47 pm (et) 4eyes: The freaking war was over. The South was a wreck. one fourth of the man power was crippled. The major industry in Mississippi in 1866 was making appendages and crutches....How much further can you go in this?

9/28/2008 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: I was surprised that Supreme court justices still did trials.

9/28/2008 9:47 pm (et) Babs: I'm ready to move on.

9/28/2008 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: As Jeff and Varina were , to Canada.

9/28/2008 9:48 pm (et) Basecat: 4 eyes...the point is from my viewpoint...You are most correct in what you say, but to some in the US Government, that was not enough...

9/28/2008 9:48 pm (et) secret squirrel: Susan shows that the government still continued throughout the rebellion and how strong the north really was.

9/28/2008 9:48 pm (et) Babs: And all over the south and Europe.

9/28/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: OK...Let's move to Chapter 17 These Days of Our Hard Fortune.

9/28/2008 9:49 pm (et) Babs: They sure did a lot of traveling considering they had no money.

 9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The Davis family seems like a band of nomads, going from one place to another. Who financed this. Davis had no job.

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
Basecat: Or fortune as it is spelled everywhere else in the other 49 states. ;)

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
secret squirrel: Yep; I'd like to learn that trick.

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
Susansweet: LOL

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
secret squirrel: And the schools!

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
mobile_96: Babs, would love to know how they handled that traveling worldwide, and always broke.

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
Susansweet: I think friends of the Confederacy were backing them.

9/28/2008 9:50 pm (et)
calcav: Me too SS, Nita

9/28/2008 9:51 pm (et)
Susansweet: I kept wondering that.

9/28/2008 9:51 pm (et)
Susansweet: And the fees for the schools the children were put in.

9/28/2008 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Seems like in the Varina book it mentions she wrote articles.

9/28/2008 9:51 pm (et)
Babs: Guess they were dependent on the kindness of strangers.

9/28/2008 9:51 pm (et)
Susansweet: And she did sewing.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
amhistoryguy: A friend of the Vatican ?

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
Susansweet: But that might have been later.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
mobile_96: Seems he did get some money from Joe's will, but seems that came later, not right away.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
Lincoln Fan: Another thing, whenever they were separated, Davis writes these loving letters telling Varina how much he misses her, then on his way to see her, he continually takes these side trips to visit places and people, actually delaying their reunions.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
Susansweet: Could be Dave.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
Basecat: Babs...My thoughts as well...and tend to think those they visited helped them out immensely.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
4eyes: More probably a hoard of gold and silver.

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
calcav: Very good Babs. LOL

9/28/2008 9:52 pm (et)
mobile_96: babs, strangers gave them boat fare to Europe??

9/28/2008 9:53 pm (et)
Susansweet: Lincoln Fan wait til you read the version in Cashion.

9/28/2008 9:53 pm (et)
Basecat: LF...Much the same pattern he showed throughout the marriage ...

9/28/2008 9:53 pm (et)
Susansweet: Varina's family ?

9/28/2008 9:55 pm (et)
Susansweet: Doesn't say much about his relationship to Virginia Clay either.

9/28/2008 9:55 pm (et)
Babs: Like there was something we were not told. I'm broke and no prospects. The logically thing is to go to Europe.

9/28/2008 9:55 pm (et)
Basecat: In terms of Canada, you have to remember there were a lot of Confederacy supporters up there, and would not surprise me if they helped out Davis while there.

9/28/2008 9:55 pm (et)
Susansweet: Just that they were "penpals".

9/28/2008 9:55 pm (et)
Basecat: Financially...and probably paid for the trip to Europe as well.

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Wasn't just Southerner's Horace Greeley might have helped pay their way

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Agree Susan, something Fishy there.

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) 4eyes: Ok so he traveled here and there then what?

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) Babs: Susan does the Varina book say more about that relationship? Sounded like they were having computer sex.

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Cashion thought so.

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) secret squirrel: Boy did Greeley go back and forth!

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: But who paid for the trip to Europe. Didn't the book state that he had to make sure his travels were linked to business so he could claim expenses. But he was out of work at that time.

9/28/2008 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes it does.

9/28/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: That was when he went to work for the insurance company.

9/28/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Sold papers ss.

9/28/2008 9:57 pm (et) calcav: Joseph never turned the title of the Mississippi land over to Jeff. Lucky call or shrewd move?

9/28/2008 9:57 pm (et) 4eyes: What kinda insurance Sue?

9/28/2008 9:57 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I thought it was after the insurance job..

9/28/2008 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: Shrewd move on his part.

9/28/2008 9:58 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right! Remember how he backed Lincoln when we went to war???

9/28/2008 9:58 pm (et) mobile_96: But really didn't do Joseph himself much good.

9/28/2008 9:59 pm (et) mobile_96: Not after the war at least.

9/28/2008 9:59 pm (et) Susansweet: Was sure glad to see the grand daughter finally got married after Joseph died.

9/28/2008 9:59 pm (et) calcav: Joseph didn't get anything out of the move, but his daughter eventually did.

9/28/2008 9:59 pm (et) Babs: Just kept him in control.

9/28/2008 9:59 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes, so her hubby could help her claim the property.

9/28/2008 9:59 pm (et) Susansweet: Right.

9/28/2008 10:00 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Then Davis tries to get the land from the children.

9/28/2008 10:00 pm (et) secret squirrel: Just backing up to the Bohemian Brigade, Greeley wrote Lincoln such an emotional letter; Lincoln never answered.

9/28/2008 10:00 pm (et) Basecat: Not sure if you know, but there actually is a statue to Greeley right near City Hall in NYC.

9/28/2008 10:01 pm (et) secret squirrel: Nope, didn't know.

9/28/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: Didn't know that.

9/28/2008 10:02 pm (et) Babs: Does it face west?

9/28/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: Beat me to it babs.

9/28/2008 10:02 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Why west?

9/28/2008 10:03 pm (et) Babs: Phrase "Go west,young man." is attributed to Greeley.

9/28/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Go West young man .

9/28/2008 10:04 pm (et) Susansweet: Thought it was interesting with all his other problems his son washes out of VMI

9/28/2008 10:04 pm (et) Susansweet: Can you just picture the disappointment.

9/28/2008 10:05 pm (et) mobile_96: Almost as bad as losing Richmond.

9/28/2008 10:05 pm (et) secret squirrel: Really.

9/28/2008 10:06 pm (et) Susansweet: Maybe even worse it was his flesh and blood.

9/28/2008 10:06 pm (et) Babs: I felt bad for the kid. All his brothers died. He gets hauled all over creation. Shipped off to school. The poor boy needed therapy.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Yeah I agree.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) secret squirrel: Are we finally empathizing with JD? I have to a point.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Those kids were hauled all over the country and Europe.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) mobile_96: Could have used a stay at home dad too.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I wonder if he could have had emotional or behavioral problems by that time. They were sure moved around and were really taunted as children.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: I am empathizing with his children and Varina.

9/28/2008 10:07 pm (et) secret squirrel: Which one was singing hang Jeff Davis? :)

9/28/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: And with him having his father's name.

9/28/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: I think he is the one it was sung to.

9/28/2008 10:08 pm (et) Babs: Stuck in different schools everywhere, left with grandma in Canada.

9/28/2008 10:09 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The girls seemed to turn out OK.

9/28/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: Not really.

9/28/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: Winnie never married.

9/28/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Became the daughter of the Confederacy and was shown off everywhere as the symbol of the lost cause.

9/28/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Was not allowed to marry the man she loved as he was a northerner.

9/28/2008 10:10 pm (et) secret squirrel: Which reminds me of the Lee girls; and the more i think about it; i think their mother had more to do with that than Lee. Ok back to JD.

9/28/2008 10:10 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Oh, my. I didn't know that.

9/28/2008 10:11 pm (et) Susansweet: Right Pam.

9/28/2008 10:11 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: SS they never married either. Couldn't find anyone as great as old dad.

9/28/2008 10:11 pm (et) Susansweet: I think the only one that escaped was the oldest daughter who married in Europe.

9/28/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: But she is buried in the family plot at Hollywood.

9/28/2008 10:12 pm (et) secret squirrel: I don't think so; remember how reluctant and scared Mary Lee was to marry?

9/28/2008 10:13 pm (et) secret squirrel: Just a NEW thought, now that i am THINKING.

9/28/2008 10:14 pm (et) Basecat: Link to the Greeley Statue...and there are 2 in NYC, but photo with this link is the one near City Hall.

9/28/2008 10:14 pm (et) Basecat:

9/28/2008 10:15 pm (et) Susansweet: I love how we are lead up to Sarah Dorsey and her regards to Varina at the end of the chapter.

9/28/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Where Davis was staying while Varina is still in Europe.

9/28/2008 10:16 pm (et) calcav: Looking forward to it. sounds interesting. n

9/28/2008 10:16 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, Susan. As I knew so little about Davis before the book, this is all new to me. My husband told me about it today.

9/28/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Nita have you read the Varina book?

9/28/2008 10:17 pm (et) Basecat: Greeley Statue in City Hall faces South...

9/28/2008 10:17 pm (et) Basecat: City Hall Park I should say.

9/28/2008 10:17 pm (et) calcav: No. Tom says we have it and I am going to read it.

9/28/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Well drat.

9/28/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Should face west.

9/28/2008 10:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Maybe we should DO the book here.

9/28/2008 10:18 pm (et) Susansweet: Good it is a fine read.

9/28/2008 10:18 pm (et) Susansweet: Soooo many books soooo little time.

9/28/2008 10:19 pm (et) calcav: Will start it tomorrow. Good night to all from Mississippi. Including Blance DuBois.

9/28/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Good night Calcavs

9/28/2008 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: Getting kicked out has got me discombobulated, so am gonna end the Book Chat for this evening. We finish the discussion on JD next week. Thanks to all for a fine chat. :)

9/28/2008 10:20 pm (et) Susansweet: We had reached pretty much the end Steve

9/28/2008 10:21 pm (et) secret squirrel: BC are you seeing JD as human?

9/28/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Hopefully we will find out more about Sarah Dorsey in the last chapters.

9/28/2008 10:22 pm (et) Basecat: a way yes, but not a human I would want to know personally...Actually think his brother Joseph was even worse...

9/28/2008 10:22 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Thanks for another great chat. I'm pretty well done with going up to the lake now and should be here on Sundays from now on with few exceptions. I'm not as angry with him but the author doesn't do a really good job of humanizing him.