Book Chat
Jefferson Davis, American
William J. Cooper

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 09/21/08 and covered Chapters 14 & 15.

9/21/2008 9:08 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the Sunday Night Book chat as we continue to discuss William Cooper, Jrs. book Jefferson Davis, American Tomight we will be discussing Chapters 14 and 15.

9/21/2008 9:08 pm (et) jimtno: Yes they were. The chain of command well command of the regiment passed from their Colonel Robert McAllister, through the ranking Major Phil Kearny and the down to Captain Ackerman. In about 10 minutes

9/21/2008 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: Please refrain from using the PM function during the duration of the chat. Thanks,

9/21/2008 9:09 pm (et) jimtno: No Problema..

9/21/2008 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: Let's start with Chapter 14 We Are Fighting For Existence.

9/21/2008 9:10 pm (et) Basecat: Comments or thoughts?

9/21/2008 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: Much of this chapter seemed like a review or Davis's side of the story that I have read in other books about Johnston and Hood .

9/21/2008 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: And Army of Tennessee.

9/21/2008 9:13 pm (et) Basecat: Susan, some say those in the AoT were the ones who caused the problems, but IMHO, the ultimate fall guy for that fiasco has to be Davis.

9/21/2008 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: Yep I agree there.

9/21/2008 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: Of course then I am a fan of Cheatham and Cleburne and the others in A of T

9/21/2008 9:15 pm (et) calcav: Agreed here too. If he served as the de facto Secretary of War and C in C he bears responsibility for the leadership issues he ignored.

9/21/2008 9:15 pm (et) mobile_96: Agree also, but then again, who did he really have decent to put in charge (West Pointers, that is).

9/21/2008 9:15 pm (et) secret squirrel: Why would Davis have to be the fall guy.

9/21/2008 9:15 pm (et) Babs: There may be plenty of blame to go around.

9/21/2008 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: And it started long before he made the trip out there, and really did nothing to change the function of that army. But in 1864, what he did was send his own spy to tell him what was going on, and he picked the wrong guy to do so.

9/21/2008 9:16 pm (et) secret squirrel: I agree with Babs.

9/21/2008 9:16 pm (et) Basecat: Pam, Because he knew of the friction amongst the officers out there...but did not make any changes when they were obviously needed. He was the Commander in Chief, but did not act like on in this instance.

9/21/2008 9:17 pm (et) mobile_96: As was discussed last wk, the upper level spent more time trying to protect their honor than defending the Confederacy.

9/21/2008 9:17 pm (et) 20thMass: Sounds like the Army of the Potomac.

9/21/2008 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: What about A. P. Stewart ?

9/21/2008 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...That's the problem with most of the armies back then. Commander had to have been from the Point, and there were a lot of capable officers who should have gotten a chance. Davis recycled Generals he really did not trust.

9/21/2008 9:18 pm (et) secret squirrel: True true, but i just want to add that those generals acted childishly, but...the ultimate responsibility is on the commander and chief as you say.

9/21/2008 9:18 pm (et) Babs: I read the description of Johnston and had to double check to see if Cooper was talking about Little Mac.

9/21/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: They were good friends before the War Babs and very much alike.

9/21/2008 9:19 pm (et) Basecat: Will just add, with the lack of supplies available out there, the lack of reinforcements, and the fact that it was so far away from the CSA Capital did not help the situation.

9/21/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Weren't they roommates at West Point even?

9/21/2008 9:20 pm (et) calcav: Susan, I agree with your choice of A. P. Stewart. A nasty head wound at Ezra Church may have had some bearing on his not being considered vice Hood.

9/21/2008 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Problem with Johnston that I have...I agreed with he could not attack, but he should have worked a lot harder to stop the constant flanking maneuvers Sherman pulled on him.

9/21/2008 9:20 pm (et) Babs: Must be where they learned learned they needed more men before they could move.

9/21/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Thanks Tom I didn't realize he had been wounded .

9/21/2008 9:21 pm (et) secret squirrel: I guess reading tactics and applying them are 2 different things.

9/21/2008 9:21 pm (et) Basecat: Babs, which is described in the opening parts of the chapter. Much is said of the war weariness in the North, but same thing was going on in the south as well.

9/21/2008 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: Pam...Only position I should hold is armchair General. :) Lot easier. :)

9/21/2008 9:22 pm (et) calcav: Joe said of the flanking movement, "Such warfare was never before waged." I'm surprised a professional soldier would say a statement like that.

9/21/2008 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: Seems like with this command creative thinking should have been applied , move someone up who had the ability but not the rank, I just don't understand Hood and guess I never will .

9/21/2008 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Did seem that way Babs.

9/21/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: Tom, A very good point, and could not figure out that one either...Was he sleeping in 1862 and 1863 when Lee performed those flanking marches on the AoP? :)

9/21/2008 9:23 pm (et) Babs: How many stars does an armchair general get?

9/21/2008 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: Six stars of course.

9/21/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: None, but has free access to the fridge when need be,. :)

9/21/2008 9:23 pm (et) secret squirrel: BC, no I mean some are book smart and some have what it takes in the field.

9/21/2008 9:24 pm (et) calcav: History is loaded with examples of the flanking maneuver. I guess it was new to him.

9/21/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Pam...Very true...Guys like Halleck and Cooper were best served at their desk jobs.

9/21/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: SS that book smart or have what it takes in the field is so true with many occupations.

9/21/2008 9:25 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right exactly Sue.

9/21/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: I know teachers of both kinds and I am sure you can name nurses of both.

9/21/2008 9:25 pm (et) mobile_96: Just a cover-up for his lack of trying to stop Sherman.

9/21/2008 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: But what Johnston took weeks to do Hood did in a matter of days .

9/21/2008 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: Thing I find funny, that with all the stuff he was dealing with, he still had meet the public receptions at the CSA White House once a week. Imagine that today...Hey George, it's Base...Wanna have a beer and watch the game? :)

9/21/2008 9:27 pm (et) Susansweet: Davis asked Lee's opinion and then ignored it.

9/21/2008 9:27 pm (et) calcav: Receptions in the White house...but they ended soon as congress was dismissed.

9/21/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Right Calcav.

9/21/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Very important to entertain those congress men.

9/21/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: And their ladies.

9/21/2008 9:28 pm (et) Babs: Base, Don't choke on a pretzel.

9/21/2008 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...Another fine Cooper continually points out how much JD respected Lee's thoughts on issues. Wrong time to not listen to him IMHO. Hood was a shell of the fighter that he was earlier in the War...No way should he have been given that job.

9/21/2008 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...and will Duck when skeet shooting with Cheney.;)

9/21/2008 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: No, he was not.

9/21/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: BTW, and the more I read about him, you know who was the worst enemy the Confederacy faced??? One of their own...Governor Joe Brown of Georgia.

9/21/2008 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Cannot blame his lack of ability on drugs.

9/21/2008 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh my yes.

9/21/2008 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Joe Brown was an interesting Governor.

9/21/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: It's that State's rights thing thrown in too

9/21/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: His state, Georgia's rights

9/21/2008 9:32 pm (et) secret squirrel: He helped the fall of the Confederacy.

9/21/2008 9:32 pm (et) calcav: Joe Brown? I vote for Alek Stephens as "Cheerleader of the Month".

9/21/2008 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: Susan, which I found ironic, as that is what was one of the reasons for Secession. :)

9/21/2008 9:33 pm (et) Susansweet: Good person to have as your Vice President huh Calcav, man that is against everything you are for

9/21/2008 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Base that is the idea that interest me the most, Each state is wanting State's rights , so how can you have a central government that is controlling all the states.

9/21/2008 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Each state is interested in their rights first .

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) mobile_96: Not just wanting, but Demanding their rights.

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: One of the reasons I think even if they had won they would not have been one united group of states .

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) secret squirrel: They didn't all share the same vision obviously.

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Right mobile . loudly demanding.

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Many Southern politicians were more committed to the cause of advancing their own interests than they were advancing the cause of their Confederacy.

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) Basecat: And in most cases, such as Brown, he was concerned about keeping his power instead of helping the larger cause.

9/21/2008 9:35 pm (et) secret squirrel: Hate to say it, but jd did have THAT concept down.

9/21/2008 9:36 pm (et) Babs: Totally agree Susan. They were doomed by their own ideology.

9/21/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Babs.

9/21/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Would love to hear Teej's view of Vance and North Carolina.

9/21/2008 9:38 pm (et) Basecat: As is typical, when Sherman "ravaged" Georgia, who was the one asking for help every day?? Brown, and by that time there really was no way to help. IMHO, even after Atlanta fell, Hood's mission should have been to damage Sherman whenever he could, and not head on the trail away from way the danger was.

9/21/2008 9:39 pm (et) secret squirrel: Hood and PGT had a little problem coordinating, didn't they?

9/21/2008 9:39 pm (et) calcav: Intresting how JD distanced himself to the point he stated he did not know Hood was heading into Tennessee.

9/21/2008 9:40 pm (et) secret squirrel: He had enough heat on his tail.

9/21/2008 9:40 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought so too Tom.

9/21/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: I love the statement in the book If Sherman refused to oblige the Confederates.

9/21/2008 9:40 pm (et) secret squirrel: Oh, the quasi surrender?

9/21/2008 9:41 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Did the Confederacy, and Davis, need a General in charge of the Army, to direct things in all theaters ?

9/21/2008 9:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: Guy, the officials of the southern govt thought so after things got bad.

9/21/2008 9:42 pm (et) 20thMass: Who would have been in charge of all theaters?

9/21/2008 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: Major problem I see, is generals only 'suggested' not directed, even when in complete command.

9/21/2008 9:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: They really pushed that issue.

9/21/2008 9:42 pm (et) calcav: amhistoryguy, would JD have LET a General in charge actually yield authority. The author said nothing changed when Lee was given the post.

9/21/2008 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: Davis would never yield his authority.

9/21/2008 9:43 pm (et) secret squirrel: Lee was courteous and always let Davis know what he was planning.

9/21/2008 9:43 pm (et) Basecat: IMHO he should have kept himself between Sherman and Lee's armies. Going on a wild goose chase was not the answer. I often think why he thought he could win, as if the north would not send soldiers to confront him. Reason why they could is they had the men to do so. Many talk about Sherman's grand accomplishment, but most of the March to the sea was a cakewalk, until they got to NC.

9/21/2008 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: Lee knew how to deal with Davis unlike the others in the west

9/21/2008 9:44 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes.

9/21/2008 9:44 pm (et) Basecat: Well he did bring in Bragg...but that surely did not work.

9/21/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: And then he brought in The Creole and that didn't work well either.

9/21/2008 9:45 pm (et) secret squirrel: He had some losers!

9/21/2008 9:45 pm (et) amhistoryguy: It would seem that since JD did not appoint someone early on, he did not feel such a need. Perhaps another of his shortcomings. IMO, it may have made some difference in the way the Confederacy waged the war, but we will never know.

9/21/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: me it is simple...Davis never would delegate authority to anyone. He always had to have the final say on every issue, whether it be important or not.

9/21/2008 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: He figured his training at West Point and his serving in the military made him the ultimate commander

9/21/2008 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: and I agree Base , he could not let go of any authority

9/21/2008 9:46 pm (et) 20thMass: A micro manager is not the best person to work for.

9/21/2008 9:47 pm (et) secret squirrel: I agree, and as long as the Confederacy had victories everything was fine.

9/21/2008 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh yeah everyone loves you when you are winning.

9/21/2008 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: Hard thing to read for me was the story of the tragic death of their son at the White House of the Confederacy. Learned something new though, as I had no clue that Varina was once again pregnant 7 weeks after that sad day.

9/21/2008 9:48 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yeah, I can't even imagine that. But she didn't go crazy like our girl in the north.

9/21/2008 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: That was a sad story.

9/21/2008 9:49 pm (et) calcav: News of the pregnancy was a surprise here as well. What a traumatic situation for a mother to be.

9/21/2008 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: Varina was a strong woman to deal with all she did in her life.

9/21/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: Pam...which is very true. She hated what happened, but in her own way she accepted it unlike Mary Todd.

9/21/2008 9:49 pm (et) secret squirrel: So i see!

9/21/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: Varina was not the sheltered southern belle Mary was. .

9/21/2008 9:50 pm (et) Babs: Base she was already pregnant and gave birth in seven weeks.

9/21/2008 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: Not sure if all have been to the White House in Richmond, but where he fell to his death, the area is so narrow, and an accident waiting to happen.

9/21/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: Which is interesting.

9/21/2008 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...My bad..misinterpreted it.

9/21/2008 9:50 pm (et) cwbksell: enters the chatroom.

9/21/2008 9:51 pm (et) calcav: Author said he was "walking on the rail" 12 feet above the bricks.

9/21/2008 9:51 pm (et) secret squirrel: Just like a kid, no fear.

9/21/2008 9:51 pm (et) Babs: If you work around kids you marvel that any survive to adulthood.

9/21/2008 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: Tom...right next to that area is a very narrow staircase as well...and even I did not like walking down those stairs.

9/21/2008 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: The child was Winnie, Daughter of the Confederacy

9/21/2008 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Babs.

9/21/2008 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: Any last thoughts on Chapter 14?

9/21/2008 9:53 pm (et) calcav: We remember that staircase. A guide/docent pointed it out to us.

9/21/2008 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: The last part of the chapter on Davis's ideas on using slaves in battle was an eye opener.

9/21/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Thought only Cleburne had suggested that.

9/21/2008 9:54 pm (et) calcav: Twice in Chap 14 the author states that Lee was holding Grant at Bay. Did not buy into it.

9/21/2008 9:54 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought that his willingness to give up slavery for independence was more eye opening.

9/21/2008 9:55 pm (et) secret squirrel: You know, for them to consider that!! Truly desperation.

9/21/2008 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: That whole section was eye opening Mobile.

9/21/2008 9:55 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yeah, but his plan mobile????

9/21/2008 9:55 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Problem I see is that what he is willing to give up, is not his to give up.

9/21/2008 9:55 pm (et) Basecat: Susan... "improbable contingency". Just shows how desperate the South was at this point manpower wise.

9/21/2008 9:56 pm (et) secret squirrel: Have the "freedmen" go back living with their fomer masters?

9/21/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Tom, by keeping himself almost surrounded, he was tying down Grant, Kinda.

9/21/2008 9:57 pm (et) calcav: Couldn't have put it better Mobile - Browner ;)

9/21/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile I like that description.

9/21/2008 9:58 pm (et) Babs: I'll slip out as I have read none of the next chapter.

9/21/2008 9:59 pm (et) Basecat: Let's move on to Chapter 15 The Issue is...Very Painful for me to Meet 1865 arrives, and the war is in it's dwindling days.

9/21/2008 9:59 pm (et) mobile_96: This whole chapter just shows they had run out of options, and no where to go.

9/21/2008 10:00 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...and found it interesting that JD continued to blame the "malcontents" in the South for what was happening to their "country"..

9/21/2008 10:00 pm (et) Susansweet: And that Davis does not see that everyone else doesn't share his view of how they are doing and that the War must go on.

9/21/2008 10:01 pm (et) calcav: The guy was a wreck. He was on the verge of losing everything he, his father and his brother had worked for. He was on the verge of being a failure, something he could not admit or live with. He had to fight to the end.

9/21/2008 10:01 pm (et) Basecat: You have to give him credit in a way...He never quit until he was caught.

9/21/2008 10:01 pm (et) secret squirrel: You know, I've come to the conclusion that he just couldn't help himself, even if he did see another viewpoint.

9/21/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: His life was bound up with the Confederacy and he would live or die with it

9/21/2008 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Tom, Most people point to the photos of Lincoln as the war progressed and how much he looked worn out as it continued, but when you think on JD he was just as bad.

9/21/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: What amazes me even more as Varina never wavers in her support of him.

9/21/2008 10:03 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, do give him credit for trying to go on, even when the rest of the South knew better.

9/21/2008 10:03 pm (et) calcav: He was grasping at straws and pipe dreams at the end. Recalling the deserters, arming the slaves, European recognition.

9/21/2008 10:04 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile..I tend to think that is what broke his heart, that he could see that at this point not many shared his convictions that they should not give up.

9/21/2008 10:04 pm (et) Susansweet: And that he could finally go to the Trans Mississippi and continue the fight.

9/21/2008 10:04 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, interesting thought.

9/21/2008 10:04 pm (et) secret squirrel: I don't know, I think about the loss of life, then he was totally aware of a whole generation of men dying, and saw that younger and younger boys would be needed. there has to be a point where you say it's done.

9/21/2008 10:05 pm (et) calcav: SS, just trying to put the same thing in words.

9/21/2008 10:05 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...All I can say from reading the book, once he took the job, he never wavered in his convictions, even to the bitter end.

9/21/2008 10:06 pm (et) Susansweet: He was focused.

9/21/2008 10:06 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I have never been able to figure out what is was that gave him hope. There must have been something.

9/21/2008 10:06 pm (et) calcav: Steve, very true, but those convictions came at a staggering price when the end was evident but he would not submit.

9/21/2008 10:07 pm (et) secret squirrel: Susan, blinders.

9/21/2008 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Maybe.

9/21/2008 10:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Makes you wonder a what if, what if his own sons were older and had to go off to fight ?

9/21/2008 10:07 pm (et) 20thMass: He probably had the idea that it was the south's War for Independence and thought of the struggles the young nation faced then.

9/21/2008 10:08 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yep, Sue i was thinking that too.

9/21/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: Davis does mention that in his speeches coly.

9/21/2008 10:08 pm (et) Basecat: Pam, IMHO, yeah he knew the consequences about not giving up. Many in the North said the same thing about casualties. Even Mrs. Lincoln called Grant a butcher. That's the saddest thing that comes from the CW, and am speaking about what you mentioned. ...The ruinization of a complete generation of Americans, because both sides at the beginning could not compromise.

9/21/2008 10:08 pm (et) secret squirrel: You saw where Grant's son and lincoln's sons were though, although R Lee Jr was out in the field, but he ended up an officer too.

9/21/2008 10:09 pm (et) Basecat: As was Custis Lee, Rooney, and his nephew Fitz.

9/21/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: Lee had sons and nephews in the fight , all officers.

9/21/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: GMTA  Base.

9/21/2008 10:09 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right BC. It was pitiful, a mixture of egos and principles.

9/21/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: I love the sentence that says Davis continued to immerse himself in a sea of minutiae.

9/21/2008 10:12 pm (et) mobile_96: Didn't most, if not all, of them went to VMI, or something similar??

9/21/2008 10:12 pm (et) calcav: Rooney went to Harvard.

9/21/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: Lee's sons?

9/21/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Yes.

9/21/2008 10:13 pm (et) secret squirrel: Only 1 child per family in West Point, isn't that the rule?

9/21/2008 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: I often imagine what it would have been to be in the church when he got Lee's message that Richmond had to be evacuated. Just to be there and see the look on his face as many in the pews did that Sunday at St. Paul's

9/21/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: I think so.

9/21/2008 10:13 pm (et) secret squirrel: Like George Bush in the classroom.

9/21/2008 10:14 pm (et) secret squirrel: Let me stop.

9/21/2008 10:14 pm (et) Basecat: Pam...It's funny, when I read that, I automatically recalled the look on Bush's face when he got the news.

9/21/2008 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: And am not trying to be political, but the situations are very much the same.

9/21/2008 10:15 pm (et) mobile_96: Similar rule at VMI??

9/21/2008 10:15 pm (et) secret squirrel: yes, I know, i am lol myself.

9/21/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Don't know Mobile.

9/21/2008 10:16 pm (et) Basecat: VMI, I don't think so...IIRC there is a family in this neck of the woods who had 3 kids and they all went to VMI.

9/21/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Custis Lee went to West Point

9/21/2008 10:17 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, same time??

9/21/2008 10:18 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Nope...IIRC.

9/21/2008 10:18 pm (et) calcav: Wasn't Robert E. Lee, jr an enlisted man with an artillery battery?

9/21/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Jr.

9/21/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: oops

9/21/2008 10:19 pm (et) 4eyes: He was a captain in Poguess Battery at Antietam when Lee did not recognize him

9/21/2008 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: Tom...That he was...famous story of Lee riding up to a cannon, and did not recognize his son.

9/21/2008 10:19 pm (et) amhistoryguy: According to the wording of Admission requirements "no person shall be admitted who has had a brother admitted." So a father could have a son admitted to West Point.

9/21/2008 10:20 pm (et) Basecat: Dave ..Does it also say No Basecat's allowed? LOL..;)

9/21/2008 10:20 pm (et) Susansweet: Initially, Rob served as a private in the Rockbridge Artillery in 1862. After the Battle of Sharpsburg, he was promoted to the rank of Captain and assigned to serve as aide to his older brother Custis, who was a major general and aide-de-camp to Confederate President Jefferson Davis, and was involved in defending Richmond, Virginia. [1]

9/21/2008 10:21 pm (et) calcav: Susan, you beat me to Wikapedia :)

9/21/2008 10:21 pm (et) Basecat: This is where I lose Davis, and his thought process...Once Lee surrendered, he kept trying to relocate his Government.

9/21/2008 10:22 pm (et) Susansweet: Fast fingers Calcav.

9/21/2008 10:22 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Indirectly it does Basecat, as you must "be free of infectious or immoral character." : )

9/21/2008 10:22 pm (et) Susansweet: That blinder effect Base.

9/21/2008 10:23 pm (et) Susansweet: LOL Dave.

9/21/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: He always said his best army was the one under Lee, but now he is relying on Joe Johnston, and talk about a lost cause.

9/21/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: Dave...:) That's how the Army works...;)

9/21/2008 10:23 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yep Susan, and he KNEW Lee was his only hope obi wan.

9/21/2008 10:23 pm (et) mobile_96: And Love southern dogs.

9/21/2008 10:23 pm (et) Susansweet: And then there is Kirby Smith off in Trans Mississippi.

9/21/2008 10:24 pm (et) Susansweet: Well at least we know he was NOT wearing a dress when captured.

9/21/2008 10:25 pm (et) calcav: There was no quit and very little compromise in JD. He refused to give in for there was no other world for him outside of his Confederacy.

9/21/2008 10:25 pm (et) Basecat: Often wonder why he did not place Smith in charge of the AoT. Read Cooper's descriptions of him in the book vis a vis the Kentucky Campaign, but in some ways do you think he would have been a good fit with the AoT?

9/21/2008 10:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Calcav think you have hit it. Without the Confederacy he had nothing.

9/21/2008 10:26 pm (et) mobile_96: But tended to do what He wanted, not always what was needed.

9/21/2008 10:26 pm (et) calcav: That was Nita ,actually.

9/21/2008 10:27 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh sorry Nita. Good one Nita !!!!

9/21/2008 10:27 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...good point...glory hog if you accept Cooper's description of him.

9/21/2008 10:28 pm (et) mobile_96: Well, look what he did with Bragg going into Ky.

9/21/2008 10:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Can imagine too by this time he realizes he is in deep you know what if he is captured.

9/21/2008 10:29 pm (et) calcav: He could have moved faster without Varina but he stayed with her. Atta boy, Jeff.

9/21/2008 10:29 pm (et) secret squirrel: He always claimed his government was foreign, so why afraid. this whole thing really baffles me. the logic.

9/21/2008 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: Chuck...True, and in a way that was Davis's fault as well...In that I mean the whole departmental command structure. Also shows how timid Bragg was, as he outranked Smith, but for the most part he suggested instead of ordering.

9/21/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet: Then he blames her for his capture

9/21/2008 10:30 pm (et) calcav: And she was protecting him from stopping a bullet! So much for that atta boy, Jeff.

9/21/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Which Smith are we talking about I got lost.

9/21/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: That must be Nita.

9/21/2008 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: Kirby.

9/21/2008 10:31 pm (et) calcav: Nope, that one was Tom :)

9/21/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: oops sorry Tom and Thanks Base

9/21/2008 10:33 pm (et) calcav: People keep confusing us in here, maybe we should dress differently. Nita is doing the thinking tonight and I am doing the tYPinG.

9/21/2008 10:34 pm (et) Basecat: Well, and surprisingly we are reaching the stretch for this book chat. Only 2 more weeks to go. Homework next week will be Chapters 16 and 17. Thanks all for participating in the chat. :)