Book Chat
Jefferson Davis, American
William J. Cooper

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 09/14/08 and covered Chapters 12 & 13.

9/14/2008 9:16 pm (et) ks: Tonight we continue with discussion of Jefferson Davis: American by William J. Cooper, Jr.
In Chapter 12, "The Noblest Cause in Which Man Can Be Engaged" we're learning about Davis' inauguration. Would anyone care to share thoughts on descriptions of said inauguration and festivities? :)

9/14/2008 9:16 pm (et) ks: Or rather...sorry, his first public reception NY Day...

9/14/2008 9:16 pm (et) secret squirrel: Why the French national anthem??

9/14/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Thought it was interesting at the end of the official activities the band played La Marseillaise .

9/14/2008 9:17 pm (et) ks: Pam, I wondered the same thing?? Any ideas??

9/14/2008 9:17 pm (et) ks: Obviously a number of us scratched our heads on that one.

9/14/2008 9:17 pm (et) secret squirrel: Probably in the spirit of the first revolution'

9/14/2008 9:17 pm (et) calcav: That's what I was wondering - Browner/Nita

9/14/2008 9:17 pm (et) Babs: Probably trying to suck up to the French for recognition.

9/14/2008 9:18 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes, in retrospect, scratch heads, but they were trying to gain their freedom like the patriots of old.

9/14/2008 9:18 pm (et) 20thMass: The French helped America in our War for Independence so that might have something to do with it.

9/14/2008 9:18 pm (et) ks: Why is it I'm waiting to see if Dave has the answer? ;)

9/14/2008 9:18 pm (et) secret squirrel: Babs that too.

9/14/2008 9:19 pm (et) secret squirrel: I think their logic is twisted, incidentally no worse then the forefathers of our country.

9/14/2008 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: Was the song created after the French through off the nobles and formed the republic.

9/14/2008 9:20 pm (et) ks: I did find it interesting that Davis had planned and insisted (despite weather) that ceremony take place outdoors below the equestrian statue of Washington. Always positioning (and maybe that's the cynic in me watching TODAY'S elections and posturing)...

9/14/2008 9:20 pm (et) secret squirrel: Oh, I don't know.

9/14/2008 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: They claimed him as their founding father.

9/14/2008 9:20 pm (et) ks: ...positioning to appear to be the true patriots and those following the wishes of the founding fathers.

9/14/2008 9:21 pm (et) secret squirrel: Rallying cry of the French revolution

9/14/2008 9:21 pm (et) secret squirrel: Oh boy.

9/14/2008 9:22 pm (et) calcav: "We hope to perpetuate the principles of our revolutionary fathers. The day, the memory, and the purpose seem fitly associated. That purpose, he explained, was simply, "to maintain our ancient institutions." Jeff managed to state his case without using the "S" word.

9/14/2008 9:22 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I was looking for an answer, but I'm not reading the book so I'm hangin back : ) Would guess that it was associated with revolution.

9/14/2008 9:23 pm (et) secret squirrel:Ii like that, the s word.

9/14/2008 9:23 pm (et) ks: "ancient institutions", "peculiar institution", always some coded name, isn't it?

9/14/2008 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: Arise children of the fatherland The day of glory has arrived.

9/14/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: The day of glory has arrived.  Bloody standard is raised

9/14/2008 9:24 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes, but why encode something you aren't ashamed of?

9/14/2008 9:24 pm (et) calcav: Got us laughing Susan :)

9/14/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: Listen to the sound in the fields.

9/14/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: The howling of these fearsome soldiers.

9/14/2008 9:25 pm (et) secret squirrel: Fox hunting yip.

9/14/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: They are coming into our midst To cut the throats of your sons and consorts.

9/14/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: First verse. I am sure they thought that was what was happening to them.

9/14/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: hmmmm

9/14/2008 9:25 pm (et) ks: With that thought in mind, I believe it's also in this chapter where the author points out that brother Joseph refers to Jeff's slaves (in his correspondence) as his "property" rather than the S word.

9/14/2008 9:26 pm (et) calcav: Slavery was a term apparently reserved to describe what would happen to the southern people if the north was victorious.

9/14/2008 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: To arms citizens Form your battalions March , march . Let impure blood Water our furrows.

9/14/2008 9:27 pm (et) ks: We've probably all stated this, but it's difficult (increasingly difficult in this read for me anyway) to not look on the actions with 21st century eyes and judgment.

9/14/2008 9:28 pm (et) ks: Tom! Wow...what an observation. And it does seem to be accurate with what we've read.

9/14/2008 9:29 pm (et) calcav: Never bought into that line KS, "As I would not be a slave, nor would I own one" I know I murdered that quote but you get the gist.

9/14/2008 9:29 pm (et) ks: Or maybe that was Nita. ;) Sorry... Good post, calcav, whoever typed it.

9/14/2008 9:29 pm (et) calcav: It is was Nita's observation and my poor typing.

9/14/2008 9:30 pm (et) ks: That's teamwork. ;)

9/14/2008 9:30 pm (et) ks: Other observations on the NYD reception, activities, speechifying?

9/14/2008 9:31 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Regarding "La Marseillaise," The Encyclopedia of the Confederacy says it is a "patriotic air" along with "Gary Owen," and Col. Kirkland's March," and these tunes were including in most military bands music books.

9/14/2008 9:31 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Use of the tune may have less "meaning" than we tend to give it.

9/14/2008 9:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Which begs the question...did the regular army ever use it?

9/14/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: That's true Dave, it might have just be used as a military air.

9/14/2008 9:34 pm (et) ks: Other incidents relayed in this chapter that merit discussion those which begin to show the leadership style of Davis. Speaking of how he handled his generals and cabinet. Any thoughts?

9/14/2008 9:35 pm (et) mobile_96: Seems he never used them to their full capacity.

9/14/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Micro managed everything.

9/14/2008 9:36 pm (et) ks: And he certainly did cling to being "devoted to THE CAUSE" as a reason to make or maintain an appointment. He expected others to share the same devotion he did.

9/14/2008 9:36 pm (et) calcav: He micromanaged to the Nth degree but would not give a direct order to a general when they needed/wanted one.

9/14/2008 9:37 pm (et) ks: All of which had to handicap the CSA.

9/14/2008 9:38 pm (et) Susansweet: Seemed like the only general he trusted was Lee.

9/14/2008 9:38 pm (et) calcav: ...and A.S. Johnston.

9/14/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh right , until he was killed

9/14/2008 9:39 pm (et) ks: I was really looking forward to seeing if Steve would (in no uncertain terms) speak of the situation with searching for a general in the West. After Sidney Johnston's death, no one seemed to match up for JD anyway.

9/14/2008 9:41 pm (et) calcav: It had to be frustrating for Jeff, for after Sidney Johnston died, there simply was no one capable of taking the reins in the west.

9/14/2008 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: The only one capable was needed in the east.

9/14/2008 9:42 pm (et) ks: More than frustrating, I'd think. The lack of cooperation and backbiting between the generals...

9/14/2008 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: The generals in the west were amazing at their infighting.

9/14/2008 9:43 pm (et) ks: It's a "what if", for sure, but I'll ask it. What's your OPINION? Would REL have done so well in the west?

9/14/2008 9:44 pm (et) ks: Thoughts behind your OPINION would be appreciated. ;)

9/14/2008 9:44 pm (et) calcav: But Davis fostered the lack of cooperation between generals by coming out and ORDERING them to cooperate. Me merely suggested. The results were the poor cooperation between Bragg/Smith, Johnston/Pemberton, Van Dorn/Price.

9/14/2008 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: If they had fought for the Confederacy, instead of them selves, who knows who would have risen to the top to be much better than what Davis was saddled with.

9/14/2008 9:45 pm (et) ks: You mean by not ordering, right? I know I read that there were important POLITICAL considerations for why he didn't, but that seems foolish in retrospect since not ordering led to the failures.

9/14/2008 9:46 pm (et) calcav: Sorry, I meant he fostered the situation by not ordering them to cooperate.

9/14/2008 9:46 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Regarding "Marseillaise," according to "Singin The New Nation," by Abel, the tune was popular prior to the CW in military bands. A version arranged by Root (in 1851) was most popular. The song was adopted primarily by Confederate bands once the war began, because of the large number of French in Louisiana, and the revolutionary nature of the tune.

9/14/2008 9:46 pm (et) ks: So Chuck, would it follow that they were (perhaps) not SO devoted to THE CAUSE?

9/14/2008 9:47 pm (et) ks: I have that book. :) And have used it many times for reference, probably more so than for playing any of the music.

9/14/2008 9:47 pm (et) calcav: KS, exactly! Because he gave more importance to the political considerations, the south lost Kentucky, Vicksburg and northern Mississippi.

9/14/2008 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Dave is that the book you had me buy?

9/14/2008 9:48 pm (et) amhistoryguy: That's the one Susan. Info on that tune is page 76 ish

9/14/2008 9:49 pm (et) ks: While it's been something I was aware of in other reading, this book is really making a case for how Jefferson Davis suffered throughout the war. Not unlike Lincoln, was it?

9/14/2008 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: I donated that book to the Drum will read it on Wednesday.

9/14/2008 9:49 pm (et) mobile_96: I think they were devoted to the cause, but let the fights over rank (and honor) override what good they Might have done.

9/14/2008 9:49 pm (et) ks: Speaking of the derision he had in the press, the pressures from the war, etc...

9/14/2008 9:50 pm (et) ks: Honor... That word. The code of honor seems strange to read about today. Especially that bit where Joe Johnston wouldn't act to remove Bragg because of honor. So he "honorably" made decisions that hurt the confederacy's ability to wage war in the west.

9/14/2008 9:52 pm (et) 20thMass: I have to go now.Chat with you guys later.

9/14/2008 9:53 pm (et) ks: Are we particularly reticent tonight? :) I could throw out a real potential pot stirrer.

9/14/2008 9:54 pm (et) 20thMass: logs off.

9/14/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: I had a hard time paying attention reading this chapter. Don't know why . That maybe my reason for not participating more.

9/14/2008 9:54 pm (et) calcav: Throw it!

9/14/2008 9:54 pm (et) mobile_96: Go ahead.

9/14/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes please.

9/14/2008 9:54 pm (et) ks: Thoughts on the very title of this chapter..."The Noblest Cause in Which Man Can Be Engaged". That was from Jefferson Davis. Reactions...

9/14/2008 9:55 pm (et) secret squirrel: Always "the cause" what exactly does that mean? does it's meaning vary according to whom you ask?

9/14/2008 9:55 pm (et) ks: Susan, I'm glad to see you state that. I was less interested in this chapter because it quickly got into all of the engagements and outcomes. No doubt that's important in helping piece together the picture of JD's responses, but it quickly became FFF to me.

9/14/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Mostly likely Pam.

9/14/2008 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: I just kept reading the same sentences over and over.

9/14/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: I think in 19th century southern that is their country was the state they were from and they felt they were protecting it against attack .

9/14/2008 9:58 pm (et) ks: Pam, IMO it makes the reasons for fighting at least sound more noble. It probably inspired some to have it entitled a "Noble Cause".

9/14/2008 9:58 pm (et) calcav: We were noticing how the author devoted so much time to western affairs and skimmed over the east. I guess he thought REL had things well in hand.

9/14/2008 9:58 pm (et) amhistoryguy: There are a number of words being used that can be manipulated or spun to fit individual tastes - Honor, cause, nobility, among them.

9/14/2008 9:58 pm (et) mobile_96: Think the title relates to the forming of a government of one's own.

9/14/2008 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: I noticed that too Tom and Nita.

9/14/2008 9:59 pm (et) Susansweet: And each of those words were important to 19th century Americans.

9/14/2008 10:00 pm (et) ks: We should probably move on to include discussion of Chapter 13.

9/14/2008 10:00 pm (et) ks: Sorry, 2/3 of my post disappeared.
9/14/2008 10:01 pm (et)
amhistoryguy: They were critical to 19th century thinking, the difference in how they were interperated played a part in the pending hostility.
9/14/2008 10:01 pm (et)
Susansweet: Right Dave.
9/14/2008 10:01 pm (et)
ks: Chapter 13 "LIft Men Above All Personal Considerations". Curious, was this chapter any more engaging for you, Susan? And, as far as I'm concerned the discussion on word usage can continue with this chapter's title and content.

9/14/2008 10:01 pm (et) Susansweet: Duels were fought over honor back then.

9/14/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: I struggled with both chapters and it wasn't because I wasn't interested .

9/14/2008 10:03 pm (et) mobile_96: And honor to the founding fathers meant "serving your state (country)".

9/14/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: I found it interesting that Davis talks about the Barbarism of the enemy. I wanted to say in 21st century language . Dude you started it .

9/14/2008 10:03 pm (et) ks: I wouldn't say that I struggled. I actually stayed awake (which is saying a lot considering how little I've slept lately), but I didn't find much that I thought I'd toss out in a discussion tonight. So pretty ironic that Steve wasn't able to make it. :)

9/14/2008 10:05 pm (et) ks: Anything in Chapter 13 stand out as a new thought or an "a hah!" to you all? I appreciated the descriptions of his cabinet and the workings/layout of the Confederate White House.

9/14/2008 10:07 pm (et) mobile_96: and the Union armies were no more barbaric than the Confederate forces.

9/14/2008 10:08 pm (et) ks: Oh, except for that "beast" Butler. I mean, how dare he besmirch the women of New Orleans. That seemed the ultimate barbarity, didn't it? ;)

9/14/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Mobile.

9/14/2008 10:09 pm (et) mobile_96: Have tried to sit and read some of the discussions in the southern congress, just like in the US Congress. lots of bombast.

9/14/2008 10:09 pm (et) mobile_96: Especially like how he stopped the women's complaining (for the most part).

9/14/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: That's why they put his picture on the bottom of chamber pots.

9/14/2008 10:11 pm (et) ks: Do you believe that the people of the south actually believed that the north sought to "enslave" them? Of course that is a good word to engage emotions, but do you think the rhetoric worked in the south??

9/14/2008 10:11 pm (et) mobile_96: Sorry, was thinking of St. Louis and the efforts to stop the women from their open support of the Confederacy.

9/14/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: To them enslave them meant to change their way of life.

9/14/2008 10:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I believe many of the planter class felt that way.

9/14/2008 10:14 pm (et) ks: I suppose one could simplify it that way. Change their way of life..."general want will come upon the country", "possibly general massacre of women and children", That's some serious fear-mongering.

9/14/2008 10:15 pm (et) mobile_96: Made good propaganda for the lower classes in the south.

9/14/2008 10:15 pm (et) amhistoryguy: There always have been, and always will be, some people who will believe the rhetoric intended to stir them to action. IMO.

9/14/2008 10:15 pm (et) ks: Understand, Susan. Like I said earlier, same thing taking place here. Now combine the lack of software cooperation with these chapters. ;)

9/14/2008 10:15 pm (et) secret squirrel: I think some thought about the elevation of the blacks to being people was disturbing, God forbid equals.

9/14/2008 10:16 pm (et) secret squirrel: So this opinion would scare the planter class and most whites in general.

9/14/2008 10:16 pm (et) mobile_96: The stealing of your "property".

9/14/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: And would take the jobs of the lowest class of whites too , don't forget!!! according to the messages.

9/14/2008 10:16 pm (et) secret squirrel: And this reminds me of the Lincoln/Douglass debates.

9/14/2008 10:16 pm (et) amhistoryguy: That equality was more scary to some than the loss of labor.

9/14/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: And put the two together that is real fear.

9/14/2008 10:17 pm (et) mobile_96: Pam, that had been pushed on the lower class for years, make slaves equal, and whites won't be on the top rail any longer.

9/14/2008 10:18 pm (et) ks: The "Twenty Negro Law" discussion was something that stood out in the chapter. Thoughts?

9/14/2008 10:18 pm (et) Susansweet: Most of this chapter was a repeat of several books I have read about the army of the Tennessee , all the infighting.

9/14/2008 10:18 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yeah, rich man's war poor man's fight.

9/14/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: The reasons for the 20 Negro Law just reinforce the scare tactics. Women alone on the plantations with no one to protect them .

 9/14/2008 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96: And that was quickly noticed by a lot of soldiers on the line.

9/14/2008 10:20 pm (et) ks: As the author points out, Davis had a real dilemma since both points of view had some truth to them. White authority in the countryside was necessary to maintain control, but appearing to favor the rich would not set well either.  9/14/2008 10:21 pm (et) mobile_96: He was certainly trying to walk a very thin tightrope here.

9/14/2008 10:22 pm (et) Susansweet: And they felt the men were needed at home to oversee production of food supply.

9/14/2008 10:22 pm (et) ks: As I tried to say earlier, I can have some sympathy for the stress and difficulties Jefferson Davis withstood. I can state that even though I have no sympathy for his "cause".  9/14/2008 10:22 pm (et) Susansweet: Pat I don't agree with his cause but but he was no slacker that's for sure.  

9/14/2008 10:22 pm (et) secret squirrel: Pat, do you mean you appreciate his predicament?

9/14/2008 10:23 pm (et) Susansweet: As ill as he would be at times he did his job.

9/14/2008 10:23 pm (et) secret squirrel: That is true, he was a real trooper.

9/14/2008 10:23 pm (et) ks: No slacker and actually suffered as well from many physical ailments. The war had to be physically killing him as it was Lincoln.

9/14/2008 10:24 pm (et) secret squirrel: I could empathize with him if he thought a little more like me. but.

9/14/2008 10:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Both aged quite badly during those 4 years.

9/14/2008 10:25 pm (et) 4eyes: Bad water bad food no soap crazy women what else?

9/14/2008 10:25 pm (et) ks: Pam, even if it's a predicament some of which is his own making, I will state that I know he worked devotedly and suffered greatly.

 9/14/2008 10:25 pm (et) secret squirrel: I agree, those are the cold hard facts, but i still don't like him.

9/14/2008 10:26 pm (et) ks: Makes it tough to read the book, doesn't it?

9/14/2008 10:26 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Not reading the book, but from what I have read, I have little sympathy, primarily because he failed to recognize how he was being used by his fellow planters and "rulers."

9/14/2008 10:26 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes, but I don't want to be closed minded.

9/14/2008 10:27 pm (et) secret squirrel: Guy can you elaborate?

9/14/2008 10:27 pm (et) ks: Don't you think he was a product of where he was born and how he was brought up? That must weigh into it.

9/14/2008 10:27 pm (et) Susansweet: It is a tough book to read.

9/14/2008 10:27 pm (et) calcav: Desertion was becoming rampant in all armies. In an attempt to halt the exodus he used fear as a motivator to keep the men in ranks. The barbarity of the union invaders, scorched earth, servile insurrection, social equality.

9/14/2008 10:28 pm (et) secret squirrel: Of course Pat, a product of his time and place of birth. He believed his values were right.

9/14/2008 10:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes I do think he was a product of his time and place of birth and his upbringing.

9/14/2008 10:29 pm (et) Susansweet: We all are that.

9/14/2008 10:29 pm (et) Susansweet: He believed wholly in what he was supporting.

9/14/2008 10:30 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Davis was put in a no win situation that he either should have turned down or corrected. Governors maintaining control over where state troops were deployed, speculators in food and goods who had no interest in government needs, sometimes I think only a fool would think he could achieve independence in that situation.

9/14/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet: We today look at that and can't believe someone would support some of the ideas he supported .

9/14/2008 10:30 pm (et) ks: This is all interesting and I don't wish to cut anyone off, but I don't see us enthusiastically jumping into these chapters. :) How about I post homework for next week as 14 and 15 so that those who wish can depart without feeling like they bailed? That said, I'm reading with interest...

9/14/2008 10:30 pm (et) ks: Those 20th, 21st century eyes...

9/14/2008 10:30 pm (et) amhistoryguy: He believed in "the cause," but how did he think that he could achieve that without support from around him.

9/14/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: He couldn't and I think he was trying to get support .

9/14/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Good idea Pat.

9/14/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: These are hard chapters to discuss

9/14/2008 10:32 pm (et) ks: Dave, when I read quotes in this last chapter still displaying confidence when things were going so badly, I wonder how in touch with reality the man was.

9/14/2008 10:32 pm (et) Susansweet: So much in each chapter .

9/14/2008 10:32 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I think his "support" was using him. But that is just my opinion.

9/14/2008 10:32 pm (et) secret squirrel: I have a hard time buying a lot of attitudes and beliefs, even in those times. look at the names given to slavery, look at how many people understood human rights even then...human rights are not only a thing of the 20th or 21st century. that's my viewpoint.

9/14/2008 10:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Have to agree Pat, head was still in the clouds, or was in self denial??

9/14/2008 10:33 pm (et) ks: But, I guess it makes sense that when one has so totally committed, it's almost impossible to give up.

9/14/2008 10:33 pm (et) calcav: ks, Nita thought the same thing. The spin he put on the loss of Vicksburg was amazing. Trying to put a positive note on the loss of the Mississippi was not an easy sell.

9/14/2008 10:33 pm (et) secret squirrel: Wasn't Winston Churchill just as positive when victory was doubtful?

9/14/2008 10:34 pm (et) amhistoryguy: That's a good point ks. He might of had a clue when he was given the presidency unopposed.

9/14/2008 10:34 pm (et) Susansweet: I think he was Pam.

9/14/2008 10:34 pm (et) ks: If you believe that people didn't actually hold those attitudes/beliefs, why do you think they espoused them, Pam? Because everyone (almost) else was doing so? Because it was easier than standing up and stating differently? Not disagreeing, just asking.

9/14/2008 10:35 pm (et) calcav: So why was Jeff resistant to Longstreet taking Bragg's place? Bragg stunk and Johnston wouldn't take it.

9/14/2008 10:36 pm (et) secret squirrel: I think it is very hard to have the courage of your convictions, especially in that atmosphere.

9/14/2008 10:36 pm (et) amhistoryguy: It could be a lot like the way people even today are content saying "But we have always done it this way." It takes one person, then another, and another to stand up and say, "no, this isn't right."

9/14/2008 10:37 pm (et) secret squirrel: I agree guy.

9/14/2008 10:37 pm (et) ks: Seldom do I see a discussion concerning slavery and the beliefs of those in the south maintaining slavery that I don't think of a song from South Pacific and the line "you've got to be carefully taught how to hate, to hate all those things that your relatives hate." Substitute the word "fear" for "hate" when applicable.

9/14/2008 10:38 pm (et) amhistoryguy: And...there are very few people willing to be that first person to stand up.

9/14/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: I remember that song so well from when I first saw the movie as a teenager.

9/14/2008 10:39 pm (et) ks: I would like to amend that last post of mine. It would be true in the north as well with regard to many people's actions towards blacks in the time of the CW.

9/14/2008 10:39 pm (et) secret squirrel: Not saying there weren't "haters", but they knew better. that is why they didn't educate their slaves, that is why they separated families, that is why they had patrollers, boy if that thing got out of hand, and the institution was so benign.

9/14/2008 10:40 pm (et) ks: Haters and those filled with fear.

9/14/2008 10:40 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right. What was the fear really about. where was it grounded....great food for thought.

9/14/2008 10:41 pm (et) secret squirrel: Anyhow, where were we?

9/14/2008 10:41 pm (et) ks: Very much that, Pam.

9/14/2008 10:41 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Slavery was about labor, and status, but it was also about Power over another race, and the feelings it gave those with the Power.

9/14/2008 10:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: Reminds me of Nazi Germany; it was very important to have that substandard race.

9/14/2008 10:42 pm (et) ks: And that said, I haven't had anything to eat. :) I was trying to fly through the material so that I could follow along on discussion tonight. ;) I've also got an early AM appt. out of town. So, I'm out of here. THANK YOU all for sharing the discussion. I'll update YODB.