Book Chat
Jefferson Davis, American
William J. Cooper

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 09/07/08 and covered Chapters 10 & 11.

9/7/2008 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the Sunday Evening Book Chat. Tonight our focus is on Chapters 10 & 11 from William J. Cooper's book Jefferson Davis, American.

9/7/2008 9:10 pm (et) Basecat: Let's start with Chapter 10....The Darkest Hour.

9/7/2008 9:11 pm (et) calcav: Hiya Susan! (Actually it is Nita but she gets that alot)

9/7/2008 9:12 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I don't know if I'm jumping ahead in this chapter, but could someone please clarify the English Bill for me. I was doing OK on Kansas until then.

9/7/2008 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Guess I will throw a comment to the group and am not using hindsight when posting this. More I read this, the more I am convinced that Davis was the typical politician. Full of crap.

9/7/2008 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: I had never heard of it til I read it in this book

9/7/2008 9:13 pm (et) calcav: Don't hold it in Steve, what do you really think.

9/7/2008 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: BUT Steve it was 19th century Crap.

9/7/2008 9:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Me either.

9/7/2008 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I may not agree with his views but I will say he worked hard for his state. Even ill he was working .

9/7/2008 9:15 pm (et) mobile_96: He was dedicated that's for sure.

9/7/2008 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: What the English bill did was make Kansas easier to be admitted to the Union as a slave state...gave those in Kansas the right to vote Aye or no on the question of slavery and repudiated the Kansas Nebraska act.

9/7/2008 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: As for the Davis crap...Am tired of reading of his love for the old flag...and then read that he told all in Mississippi to not hire Northern teachers and tell southern educators to write their own history books.

9/7/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: It reduced the amount of Land given to the state too and if the Lecompton Act wasn't passed the territory would have to wait til it had 90,000 people to be admitted as a state.

9/7/2008 9:17 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I guess what confused me most about Davis in this chapter was that he was officially supposed to be against secession, but kept using phrases in his speeches which indicated that leaving the Union was the ultimate response to the North. Base, thanks for the info, Why did Kansas have to give up all that territory?

9/7/2008 9:17 pm (et) mobile_96: And cut down the no. of acres of public land Kansas would receive.

9/7/2008 9:17 pm (et) calcav: Sorry guys but we cannot play tonight. We are still reading our chapters and will be here next Sunday ready for bear. Just wanted to say good evening. Have fun. Tom & Nita

9/7/2008 9:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Oh, thanks Susan, you were answering my question as I was typing it.

9/7/2008 9:18 pm (et) calcav: logs off.

9/7/2008 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: It was an unusual amount to ask for.

9/7/2008 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: And it gave the south a way out of saying Congress didn't reject the Lecompton act the people of Kansas rejected the less land portion.

9/7/2008 9:19 pm (et) Basecat: More Davis crap...Part 2...Have to find the quote, but talk about being a hypocrite.

9/7/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: We get more people we will become a state and hopefully it will be a slave state. Little war changed that though.

9/7/2008 9:19 pm (et) mobile_96: Steve, Davis wasn't the only one complaining about northern teachers and books.

9/7/2008 9:20 pm (et) 4eyes: Guys he was a politician.

9/7/2008 9:20 pm (et) 4eyes: He might have been angling for a post in the sub rebellion era.

9/7/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve that still goes around , complaining about who writes the text books.

9/7/2008 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Most text books in the United States are written for Texas and secondly California as they are the two biggest purchasers of textbooks.

9/7/2008 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Such as what 4eyes,

9/7/2008 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: Davis was speaking out on what people were saying to him in Mississippi. Not what we today would want to hear but it is what was said then

9/7/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: On the Kansas issue...if the territory was not admitted as a slave state...Then the South would have to stand or be degraded. Submission to such an invasion of our rights would cover us with moral leprosy"...

9/7/2008 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: He was considered a moderate remember not a radical.

9/7/2008 9:23 pm (et) 4eyes: All of these dudes knew that Thomas Jefferson died flat complete broke.

9/7/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Davis was telling what he thought to the the people of Mississippi. They listened to what he had to say. Big difference IMHO.

9/7/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: It is interesting that when they talked compromise the only one expected to compromise was the northern states

9/7/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: I think he was also listening to the other state leaders and the voters many of whom were planter class like he was

9/7/2008 9:25 pm (et) mobile_96: Was always like that Susan.

9/7/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Problem is the ideas are so far from what we think today . At least those in the room that I am talking to I know there are throwbacks out there.

9/7/2008 9:26 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Base, I think you're being a little hard on the guy. Sure, he was a politician, but he really believed in his interpretation of the Constitution, even if was incorrect.

9/7/2008 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: Davis Crap part 3...The speeches during his visit in the North...Quite a different tune than what he was spewing in the South. I loved the line that I would not get involved in the affairs of Maine, because he was not from there. Can anyone tell me where in Kansas he was born?? :)

9/7/2008 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes Mobile but after reading at least ten books I finally saw that .

9/7/2008 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Difference was Maine was already a state and Kansas wasn't.

9/7/2008 9:27 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, Davis wasn't the only one to change a speech depending on which section of the state he was in.

9/7/2008 9:27 pm (et) Basecat: LF...Don't think I am being hard on him at all.

9/7/2008 9:27 pm (et) 4eyes: What is the difference if you are landed or not.

9/7/2008 9:28 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...Kansas Territory was owned by the US Same thing IMHO.

9/7/2008 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet: But Steve it was still up for grabs whether it was slave or free . there in lies the difference and it was close to other slave states .

9/7/2008 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...Majority of those who lived in Kansas wanted it to be a fee state, and reason why they did not vote for the Lecompton Constitution.

9/7/2008 9:30 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: After that trip north, I can understand why the southern politicians were not too happy with him. I'm also surprised that he was so well received in the north after defending slavery in his speeches.

9/7/2008 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: It was getting to that point at this time but it seesawed back and forth for a long time .

9/7/2008 9:32 pm (et) 4eyes: mobile Governor of Mississippi working for the feds to get everybody back in the fold and still protect his interests along with his family.

9/7/2008 9:32 pm (et) Basecat: LF...Found that funny in a way...especially the reaction in SC. Interesting to see the Southern version of the House Divided cannot stand version coming from Albert Brown.

9/7/2008 9:33 pm (et) Susansweet: I as a 21st century woman living in California find his definitions of why Slavery should exist horrible.

9/7/2008 9:33 pm (et) 4eyes: My wife believes in slavery.

9/7/2008 9:34 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes Susan, i have a hard time with this man.

9/7/2008 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: I know you do Pam, and I understand as well as I can .

9/7/2008 9:34 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Some things never change, 4eyes.

9/7/2008 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: We talked about this several times in Springfield

9/7/2008 9:35 pm (et) 4eyes: Me being the slave.

9/7/2008 9:35 pm (et) Basecat: My point is...he keeps declaring the love for the old flag, denies that he is a disunionist, but was preparing for his state to secede.

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) secret squirrel: No, 4 eyes, not you being a slave.

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) secret squirrel: Exactly bc.

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) 4eyes: Yes ss me

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: I think the thing is he thinks the North will give in and there won't be a need for disunion.

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) secret squirrel: Tell your wife that slavery was abolished.

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: not using hindsight, and yes different times...just bothers me.

9/7/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: NO 4 eyes you have no idea what being a real slave is like , nor do any of us except what we have read or heard.

9/7/2008 9:37 pm (et) mobile_96: Actually, I'm trying to just read this as the views Davis, of that era.

9/7/2008 9:37 pm (et) secret squirrel: Yes, susan, he was looking for a compromise.

9/7/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve, I would be worried if it didn't bother you

9/7/2008 9:37 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: That was my point earlier, Base. I had trouble with the inconsistencies. Was he just trying to cover all his bases politically?

9/7/2008 9:37 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...One thing about the speeches in the North...all done with Democratic crowds...avoided any gathering with the Republicans...or heretics...:)

9/7/2008 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: And the compromise is the north gives in and the south keeps their peculiar institution.

9/7/2008 9:38 pm (et) 4eyes: they had a grand illusion of king cotton that was put forth in the late 1850's that the world would end if not for cotton production

9/7/2008 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: And this was before the party split.

9/7/2008 9:38 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yeah, Base, but they were still against slavery.

9/7/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Cotton controlled the world . Everyone needed it so they would bow down to the south.

9/7/2008 9:39 pm (et) mobile_96: that was in '58, 4eyes, when the King Cotton view started

9/7/2008 9:39 pm (et) 4eyes: Sue, Tom Jeffersons slaves lived better than the average Joe in 1810.

9/7/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Geeze he even spoke in Faneuil Hall in Boston.

9/7/2008 9:39 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Cotton was the oil of the 1800s.

9/7/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Fan.

9/7/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: Living better Hummm.  Could they just move on to another place if they wanted to?

9/7/2008 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: I think not.

9/7/2008 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: LF...Having a hard time figuring that out...It's like there are 2 versions of him at times. Look at his dealings for the army when he returned to the senate.

9/7/2008 9:41 pm (et) 4eyes: A lot did not want to.

9/7/2008 9:41 pm (et) secret squirrel: And we are not just talking house slaves either (as it mattered) none had any rights.

9/7/2008 9:41 pm (et) Basecat: And got a honorary law degree from Bowdoin College?? Chamberlain must still be spinning in his grave.:)

9/7/2008 9:41 pm (et) Susansweet: Did not want to???? did you ask them?

9/7/2008 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve Seward sat with him at night when Davis was so ill with eye problem.

9/7/2008 9:43 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Base, I got a chuckle out of that one also. Susan, wasn't it William Seward? After that he really trashed Seward in a speech. Some gratitude.

9/7/2008 9:43 pm (et) Basecat: Susan ..IMHO...Seward came from the same mold as Davis did...

9/7/2008 9:44 pm (et) 4eyes: Don't get me wrong for a lot of slaves it was a hard life but for those with a little brains they could learn a craft and better themselves and their families.

9/7/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: A politician ?

9/7/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: How could they better themselves?

9/7/2008 9:45 pm (et) secret squirrel: Do you think many had that opportunity 4 eyes. they weren' allowed to be educated

9/7/2008 9:45 pm (et) mobile_96: 4eyes, If they were allowed to do so.

9/7/2008 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: It was against the law for them to learn to read. If they got "uppity" they were sold further south to major plantations.

9/7/2008 9:45 pm (et) 4eyes: They were better off living ona plantation than fighting and starving in Africa.

9/7/2008 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: Families were separated.

9/7/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: I don't buy that argument 4eyes...We all have a brain, but the slaves were not taught how to read and write for the most part, and did not have the chance to go to school and learn about math and science. To me, there are no little brains...

9/7/2008 9:46 pm (et) secret squirrel: Oh boy.

9/7/2008 9:46 pm (et) mobile_96: and usually the plantation owner only allowed enough slaves to learn a trade to run the plantation

9/7/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile makes a good point as well...and very true.

9/7/2008 9:47 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Base, I'll go along with you on Davis, but must disagree on Seward. I think when he served in Lincoln's cabinet he soon put his personal feelings aside and served the administration well.

9/7/2008 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Ever read about the indigo or rice plantations in South Carolina?

9/7/2008 9:47 pm (et) mobile_96: How do you know they were better off here than in Africa, most, if not all tribes had a form of government, recognized marriages (even if not called that).

9/7/2008 9:48 pm (et) Basecat: LF...You are right...I should have qualified my remarks to pre Abe.

9/7/2008 9:48 pm (et) mobile_96: They sure didn't come here to get an education.

9/7/2008 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: I have never bought that they were better off here rot.

9/7/2008 9:49 pm (et) mobile_96: In Africa they had free Will, here they had the owners Will.

9/7/2008 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore on this chapter?? If not, am gonna turn it over to Susan, who will moderate Chapter 11.. Our Cause is Just and Holy

9/7/2008 9:49 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Speaking of Abe, can hardly believe Davis hardly heard of him.

9/7/2008 9:50 pm (et) 4eyes: If life was so good in Africa how did the slave trade become so?

9/7/2008 9:51 pm (et) mobile_96: By greed, not thoughts of salvation for the poor African blacks.

9/7/2008 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: LF...Thought the same as well...about Abe.

9/7/2008 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Okay Our Cause is Just and Holy. This chapter seems to be the other side of Allegience in many aspects.

9/7/2008 9:52 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought it gave a good view of what was happening on that side of the fence.

9/7/2008 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: I was also interested in how Davis was chosen and why he was chosen for the President. A friend and I were discussing this when we read the book on Varina.

9/7/2008 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Mobile . I learned a great bit about why and how the Confederate States were set up . Why they moved to Richmond.

9/7/2008 9:53 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, I found the chapter interesting in light of Allegience. Davis was trying to control Pickens from Montgomery, trying to stop him from jumping the gun.

9/7/2008 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Anyone have comments on the choice of Davis?

9/7/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Fan I found that interesting . I kept thinking he isn't going to listen to you . watch out Davis.

9/7/2008 9:54 pm (et) mobile_96: I've seen a number of discussions on why Jefferson was a better choice than the others available, this chapter discusses it pretty well, IMO.

9/7/2008 9:54 pm (et) secret squirrel: He was a very popular politician from the south and had Government experience.

9/7/2008 9:54 pm (et) 4eyes: Sorry to diverge.

9/7/2008 9:54 pm (et) secret squirrel: Graduated West Point, fought in the war...

9/7/2008 9:55 pm (et) mobile_96: He was also liked in the North.

9/7/2008 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: I thought it was interesting that he was chosen as he had political military and administrative experience.

9/7/2008 9:55 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Wasn't Davis seen as a moderate?

9/7/2008 9:55 pm (et) secret squirrel: Nicely put Susan, that's what i was trying to say.

9/7/2008 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Mobile it explained it quite well.

9/7/2008 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: You said it fine.

9/7/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Correct Fan, big reason he was picked.

9/7/2008 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes he was considered a moderate and if you look at those South Carolina guys Rhett and such he looks really moderate.

9/7/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Or Brown

9/7/2008 9:57 pm (et) mobile_96: Or even Pickens was less moderate.

9/7/2008 9:57 pm (et) 4eyes: Rhett had bad breath.

9/7/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: I noticed Mary Chestnut got a dig in on Varina when they are in Montgomery.

9/7/2008 9:58 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: That was Clark, 4eyes.

9/7/2008 9:58 pm (et) Basecat: Am just going to add....Davis always said Mississippi was his main concern. Not true, as his main concern was for the entire South. Did Cooper go into the reasons why Davis did not want the job as President of the newly founded Confederacy at the start?

9/7/2008 9:59 pm (et) 4eyes: I Love that movie.

9/7/2008 9:59 pm (et) Babs: Didn't Davis want to be a military leader?

9/7/2008 9:59 pm (et) 4eyes: How many acres did Davis and his family own in Mississippi?

9/7/2008 10:00 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Well, the book states that our friend, Mr. Wigfall, didn't like him. I found that funny.

9/7/2008 10:00 pm (et) 4eyes: Davis was a West Pointer.

9/7/2008 10:00 pm (et) mobile_96: 4eyes, none, brother held the deed.

9/7/2008 10:00 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes He was hoping to be put in command of the army.

9/7/2008 10:01 pm (et) 4eyes: Was that after he took control?

9/7/2008 10:01 pm (et) Susansweet: He knew he would end up as either military leader or one of the other major positions , not necessarily president.

9/7/2008 10:01 pm (et) mobile_96: Actually, think he was getting either job.

9/7/2008 10:01 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I don't remember the book going into detail as to what Davis really thought about being elected President.

9/7/2008 10:01 pm (et) mobile_96: Hoping to get either job.

9/7/2008 10:01 pm (et) mobile_96: It didn't Fan.

9/7/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: I found the Confederate Constitution interesting . How they used the Constitution and fixed it . any thoughts?

9/7/2008 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Davis did spend 2 grand for some "Ocean Front Property" near Mississippi City as well.

9/7/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: It did spell out why the others were not considered.

9/7/2008 10:03 pm (et) secret squirrel: yes, just fix the parts that interfere with what the south wanted.

9/7/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Right.

9/7/2008 10:03 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: They just seemed to use the Union Constitution and then simply "clarified" the southern interpretation.

9/7/2008 10:03 pm (et) 4eyes: States rights.

9/7/2008 10:03 pm (et) Babs: I six year term for president, right? I wonder if he would have been willing to give up power.

9/7/2008 10:04 pm (et) Susansweet: I thought that was interesting that six years and no chance of ever running again.

9/7/2008 10:05 pm (et) secret squirrel: You have to wonder at the reasoning.

9/7/2008 10:05 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...a point I always make about the "Constitution". Obviously based on the US Constitution, but IMHO once those states seceeded they had no right to use it to form their new Confederacy. You secede from the Union, you secede from all things Union.

9/7/2008 10:05 pm (et) 4eyes: Good you an only run your graft for 6 years then someone else takes over.

9/7/2008 10:05 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The six years has some benefit. Saves a lot of time and money in a re-election campaign. Also frees you up to make decisions independent of party considerations.

9/7/2008 10:06 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Base, that's an excellent point.

9/7/2008 10:07 pm (et) 4eyes: Yes, but they were still English.

9/7/2008 10:07 pm (et) 4eyes: They had the English thing in them parliament and all.

9/7/2008 10:08 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I also liked the line item veto. Maybe we should take a page from them.

9/7/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve I think they felt the Constitution belonged to them in the south since it was written by Southerns mostly.

9/7/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: Good idea fan.

9/7/2008 10:09 pm (et) Basecat: 4eyes..Very true, but the whole idea of secession was to break away...and yet when dealing with the Constitution they wrote..or should say stole from does not sound like a complete break to me.

9/7/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: Appointing his cabinet became his first order of business after he was elected. What do you think of his choices and what the offices were.

9/7/2008 10:09 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The Declaration was written by a Virginian. The Constitution was written mostly by John Adams, I think. He used the Massachusetts Constitution as a model.

9/7/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: But Steve they were not breaking from the "true intent : of the Constitution just from those that didn't follow it correctly according to them.

9/7/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Madison had a lot to do with it too Fan.

9/7/2008 10:11 pm (et) Babs: Madison was called "Mr. Constitution".

9/7/2008 10:11 pm (et) Basecat: Susan... Their "true intent"...Constitution was written for all, and not just the South. Big difference IMHO.

9/7/2008 10:11 pm (et) 4eyes: The simple truth is they wanted slavery and hid it behind states rights.

9/7/2008 10:11 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Hey, what's wrong with copying the Constitution. I wish all nations would.

9/7/2008 10:12 pm (et) mobile_96: Actually, Madison is called the architect of the Constitution.

9/7/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: Adams was in England

9/7/2008 10:12 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Right, I forgot about Madison. Thanks to you both.

9/7/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: And Jefferson was in France.

9/7/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: I know Steve I am just saying what the south was saying , not my belief.

9/7/2008 10:13 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Jefferson didn't draft the Declaration?

9/7/2008 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...I know it's not your belief. Am pointing out a double standard is all.

9/7/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96: They did like the Constitution, but thought it needed more strength on the slavery topic.

9/7/2008 10:14 pm (et) Susansweet: The declaration not the Constitution.

9/7/2008 10:14 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Mobile.

9/7/2008 10:14 pm (et) 4eyes: So did we get the reading done tonight?

9/7/2008 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: That he did. Still recall Ben Franklin and John Adams asking Mr. Jefferson how he won her heart...He Plays the Violin..;)

9/7/2008 10:15 pm (et) Susansweet: I found the paragraph about how Davis worked as President interesting . That he followed the pattern he followed as secretary of war , he looked at every paper.

9/7/2008 10:15 pm (et) mobile_96: Think they wanted to add the Changes to the original but figured they'd never get away with it.

9/7/2008 10:15 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The constitution they drew up was a "provisional" constitution is says on Pg 350. Don't remember reading that it ever was voted on as permanent. Does anyone know?

9/7/2008 10:16 pm (et) Babs: They probably got busy with other things.

9/7/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Next paragraph says it was adopted Feb 8th.

9/7/2008 10:16 pm (et) 4eyes: lice

9/7/2008 10:17 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Duh. I was too quick with my question.

9/7/2008 10:17 pm (et) 4eyes: Open sewers.

9/7/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: It's okay I do the same thing.

9/7/2008 10:17 pm (et) 4eyes: Loose pigs.

9/7/2008 10:18 pm (et) mobile_96: Had to be approved by the provisional Congress, which hadn't been formed yet.

9/7/2008 10:18 pm (et) Susansweet: Sounds like he did well with setting up the Army as he had experience with with having been the Secretary of War but then what about his appointments for the diplomats to England and France.

9/7/2008 10:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Back to how he chose his cabinet. Seems he was more worried about geographical representation than ability.

9/7/2008 10:19 pm (et) mobile_96: Probably trying to keep every state happy.

9/7/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly , one from each state except Mississippi.

9/7/2008 10:19 pm (et) 4eyes: Mad dogs and Irishmen.

9/7/2008 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96: He would have gotten bitten in the butt whether everyone picked by state, or by ability.

9/7/2008 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96: He also chose people he personally knew.

9/7/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Then the government is moved to Richmond . I liked Coopers explanation of why Richmond.

9/7/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: Made so much sense.

9/7/2008 10:21 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: You got it, Mobile. The first (?) spot that opened up after Virginia joined was filled with a Virginian I believe.

9/7/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: And he did not choose radicals firebrands.

9/7/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: No Ruffin in the cabinet.

9/7/2008 10:22 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Thank goodness.

9/7/2008 10:22 pm (et) 4eyes: Davis's biggest problem was keeping his armies supplied. ha he been able to do this he would have won the war. he had superb generalship and only needed the supplies to win their independence. Had he been able to have France or England lift the blockade we would be living today in 2 separate nations like Germany and France!

9/7/2008 10:22 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, good explanation also.

9/7/2008 10:23 pm (et) Susansweet: I really doubt that 4 eyes .

9/7/2008 10:24 pm (et) Susansweet: not a chance in H##LL

9/7/2008 10:24 pm (et) mobile_96: More like Balkan states.

9/7/2008 10:24 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I don't know if keeping the army supplied better would have won the war, but sure would have made things better. He didn't have the rail system the North had and wasn't able to provide the troops with arms which was purchased from the North.

9/7/2008 10:24 pm (et) Babs: The South by its very nature would have kept splitting.

9/7/2008 10:24 pm (et) 4eyes: That is the bottom line sue.

9/7/2008 10:25 pm (et) Basecat: Have to step on out, as I have a RT issue here flaring up...yet again. :( My apologies...Homework for next week will be Chapters 12 & 13. Susan, when you are done with the chat...make sure you do so boldly so Shotgun can easily find the end. Thanks. :)

9/7/2008 10:25 pm (et) Susansweet: This is a long chapter still have Sumter , Albert Sidney Johnston , trouble with other Johnston and Mason and Slidell.

9/7/2008 10:25 pm (et) Basecat: logs off.

9/7/2008 10:25 pm (et) secret squirrel: What is that saying :states rights killed the confederacy?

9/7/2008 10:25 pm (et) mobile_96: And never had the manufacturing capabilities, especially after losing important parts of Tenn.

9/7/2008 10:26 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Mobile has an excellent point.

9/7/2008 10:26 pm (et) mobile_96: Might be right Pam, every man for himself.

9/7/2008 10:26 pm (et) Susansweet: And yes SS I would bet that States rights would have killed it.

9/7/2008 10:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Would have been, ah heck Mobile said it as I typed.

9/7/2008 10:26 pm (et) 4eyes: All of Lee's correspondence with Davis at one time or another relate to supplies and manpower. Even with that he made war for 4 years very effectively.

9/7/2008 10:26 pm (et) Babs: Can't see Texas being governed by Richmond any better than Washington.

9/7/2008 10:27 pm (et) mobile_96: Possibly better would be for Davis to be a dictator, but that would probably fail, as he didn't have the forces to enforce being dictator.

9/7/2008 10:27 pm (et) Susansweet: Would have run out of men in a few more years.

9/7/2008 10:27 pm (et) Susansweet: Nor do I think he wanted to be a dictator do you ?

9/7/2008 10:28 pm (et) mobile_96: No, but only referring to needing more help from the state governors at important phases of the war.

9/7/2008 10:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Any comments on the Johnston problems or worship of ASJohnston by Davis ?

9/7/2008 10:29 pm (et) mobile_96: That's where the comment on states rights being the doom of the South.

9/7/2008 10:29 pm (et) Susansweet: The governors really gave him problems , mine is mine for mine was their feelings.

9/7/2008 10:29 pm (et) 4eyes: Lil Mac thought of taking over.

9/7/2008 10:29 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Do you feel Johnston was unjustly passed by?

9/7/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet: He thought so . I am not sure

9/7/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet: SS will do

9/7/2008 10:30 pm (et) mobile_96: The Johnston issue becomes a thorn in Davis's side

9/7/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Major thorn.

9/7/2008 10:31 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I can't see how Davis thought that his "system" of appointing generals was going to benefit the Army. Especially given his military experience.

9/7/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: But what do you think of his hero worship of Albert Sidney.

9/7/2008 10:31 pm (et) mobile_96: Agree with Davis on this, Johnston was thinking only of himself, and not what the Confederacy needed. That issue could have been handled much better by him, with better chance of it being resolved in his favor-later on

9/7/2008 10:32 pm (et) secret squirrel: Fan, I think he knew he was the best judge of military abilities; didn't matter who outranked who though, the greater good wa for the confederacy.

9/7/2008 10:33 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I don't understand the hero-worship thing, Susan.

9/7/2008 10:33 pm (et) mobile_96: Hard to determine if Davis was right, considering that ASJ died before he could prove himself one way or the other.

9/7/2008 10:33 pm (et) Susansweet: Johnston had never won a battle.

9/7/2008 10:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Was he so much better than the others though up to this point.

9/7/2008 10:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Any other comments on this long chapter ?

9/7/2008 10:35 pm (et) Susansweet: We have been at it for an hour and a half .

9/7/2008 10:35 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, still, not one of them all had ever handled the numbers of men that would be needed in this war. Might be wonderful with a regiment, but with entire Corps, might not be so wonderful.

9/7/2008 10:36 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile true , Lee had been the king of spades up til then.

9/7/2008 10:36 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: One thing, how do you see Davis as a family man. He writes all these love letters to Varina, but seems never to be home or spend a lot of time with the kiddies. The author, thus far, has still failed to "humanize" him.

9/7/2008 10:36 pm (et) mobile_96: Old granny also.

9/7/2008 10:37 pm (et) Susansweet: I have read the book on Varinia and don't think much of him as a family man.

9/7/2008 10:37 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe he hoped his letters were his home time??

9/7/2008 10:37 pm (et) 4eyes: He was a warrior.

9/7/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: But then how many men were away from home like that at this time.

9/7/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: Again a different time.

9/7/2008 10:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Not having the media we have today, means much time on the road if anything is to get done.

9/7/2008 10:38 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Well, I still can't get a handle on him as a person.

9/7/2008 10:39 pm (et) Susansweet: I don't think much of Davis as a family man , but I do admire Varina she was a woman ahead of her times in many ways .

9/7/2008 10:39 pm (et) mobile_96: Can't call, or call in the camera's to give speeches.

9/7/2008 10:39 pm (et) 4eyes: Think of the smartest person you know Lincoln Fan then add 2.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) mobile_96: Agree Susan, keep putting the Varina book on top of Mt. MustReadOneDay, but it keeps getting knocked off.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) Susansweet: He had many sides to him and then just when you think you know him he changes.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I didn't finish the last two pages so don't know how brother Joe's visit came out but hope he and Varina made up.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) 4eyes: That is what we are talking about....people with great intelligence.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) mobile_96: Those book slides can be dangerous.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) Susansweet: NOPE she refused to.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile move it to the top!!!! It is worth the read.

9/7/2008 10:40 pm (et) mobile_96: Don't think so Fan.

9/7/2008 10:41 pm (et) Susansweet: When I was in Richmond I leaned down and told Varinia I liked her best.

9/7/2008 10:41 pm (et) 4eyes: Unlike those we have running this great country now and seeking the presidency.

9/7/2008 10:41 pm (et) secret squirrel: Varina would not accept ANYTHING from Joseph.

9/7/2008 10:41 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, just moved a Wilson Creek and a Pea Ridge book to the top.

9/7/2008 10:42 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: And to think she had to name a child after him.

9/7/2008 10:42 pm (et) mobile_96: Possible trip end of month.

9/7/2008 10:42 pm (et) Susansweet: I think the most interesting paragraph is the change on the last page of the chapter about war raged against the confederacy . Fits in with the discussion on Joe's site about Sherman.

9/7/2008 10:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Then put Varina under those.

9/7/2008 10:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Any other thoughts?

9/7/2008 10:43 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Well, I have to get the Varina book. I took it out of the library once, but still couldn't find time to read it.

9/7/2008 10:43 pm (et) 4eyes: I will put my KKK thoughts to bed as I know you want me to.

9/7/2008 10:44 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe, but still have Forts Henry and Donalson, and 3 books by Wittenburg to dig thru.

9/7/2008 10:44 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Thank you, 4eyes.

9/7/2008 10:44 pm (et) Susansweet: If not this ends the Chat for tonight on Chapters 11 and 12 Jefferson Davis.