Book Chat
Jefferson Davis, American
by
William J. Cooper

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 08/31/08 and covered Chapters 7, 8 & 9.

8/31/2008 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the Sunday night Book Chat. There will be a slight change in the format this evening, as these chapters were supposed to be discussed 2 weeks ago, so have decided to focus the talk on Jeff the Senator, Jeff The Secretary of War, and Jeff and the family. Reminder please refrain from using the PM message option during the duration of the chat. Let's start by talking about Jeff Davis, The Senator.

8/31/2008 9:09 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Hope to do a bit of that myself next week.

8/31/2008 9:09 pm (et) Babs: Both places I went last week are very well maintained.

8/31/2008 9:10 pm (et) Babs: Guess he started and ended this reading as a senator.

8/31/2008 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: The constant theme I got from reading about his time in the Senate Chamber is that his rights and the rights of his fellow Southerners were constantly being challenged.

8/31/2008 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: He was a senator during the period of all the compromises.

8/31/2008 9:12 pm (et) Babs: Not that he had much of a spirit of compromise within him.

8/31/2008 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: I learned a new word in these chapters. eleemosynary

8/31/2008 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Also is interesting how he his conception of the US Constitution was done for his purposes.

8/31/2008 9:13 pm (et) Basecat: Was gonna look that word up, but have not. Have no clue what it means. :)

8/31/2008 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: Supported by or relating to charity.

8/31/2008 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I did not know that he had served as a regent of the Smithsonian .

8/31/2008 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: eleemosynary \el-uh-MOS-uh-ner-ee\, adjective: 1. Of or for charity; charitable; as, "an eleemosynary institution." 2. Given in charity; having the nature of alms; as, "eleemosynary assistance3. Supported by or dependent on charity; as, "the eleemosynary poor."

8/31/2008 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: And that the government should publish reports related to inventions but only that not any other reason.

8/31/2008 9:16 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...Was very surprised that he was into science and such as much as the book describes.

8/31/2008 9:16 pm (et) mobile_96: Wonder why he was against publishing data on farming.

8/31/2008 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: Which, again...points to his selective view of Government, as that would be something he was in favor of..

8/31/2008 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: I didn't know it but was not surprised as so many men of his like were interested in science and inventions

8/31/2008 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Part of his definition of State's rights...Had me shaking my head as well.

8/31/2008 9:18 pm (et) Fifer: enters the chatroom.

8/31/2008 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: He did separate what the federal and the state government should or could do .

8/31/2008 9:19 pm (et) Basecat: Guess Politicians never change, as with all the problems that were going on at the time, he made a big stink about what the Government should and should not publish papers wise.

8/31/2008 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: I laughed at his denouncement of the admission of California as a fraud on the South and unconstitutional.

8/31/2008 9:21 pm (et) Basecat: His arguments about Texas, California, and New Mexico showed no sign of compromise either.

8/31/2008 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: of course not.

8/31/2008 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: They wanted Cal. for slavery, but not getting it, still wound up with a Cal. senator that was pro-slavery.

8/31/2008 9:23 pm (et) Basecat: Interesting he used the term that most settlers in those places were not true Americans either. What is a true American? Even back then the country was filled with immigrants from everywhere. Would include the slaves he owned, but they were not people so I won't include them.

8/31/2008 9:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, by then, most slaves were descendents of slaves, so were mostly born here.

8/31/2008 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: I am sure he was not happy counting all the original settlers of California , the Californios.

8/31/2008 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Other message I got, and one that should debunk the myth that he was not thinking on Civil War. Read the passages in the decade of the 1850s, and that was always an option in the back of his mind.

8/31/2008 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Oops besides the Indians I mean who he would not have counted of course.

8/31/2008 9:25 pm (et) Babs: Well, you include a fraction of the slave if it will increase your representation.

8/31/2008 9:25 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...True, point I am making is that according to him, they were not people...

8/31/2008 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: Hell his good buddy Quitman wanted Mississippi to succeed 10 years before they actually did.

8/31/2008 9:26 pm (et) mobile_96: Neither was anyone not a Southerner.

8/31/2008 9:27 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...which is a very good point as well.

8/31/2008 9:28 pm (et) Babs: The vote of the people was against secession. Supports my belief that it was the hotheads, not the regular southerners stirring things up.

8/31/2008 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: The planter class .

8/31/2008 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet: The class that most benefited from slavery and other "rights ".

8/31/2008 9:29 pm (et) mobile_96: And they had to spend decades trying to convince people that secession was the best option against the government.

8/31/2008 9:29 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...I agree, and yet guys like Davis and Quitman continually said they were representing all of Mississippi. I find in interesting as well when reading about the divide of Northern Mississippians and those in the South of the state...

8/31/2008 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: Northern part is hilly and not as good for big plantations

8/31/2008 9:30 pm (et) Babs: Base, Me too. Think about having a North and South Mississippi.

8/31/2008 9:31 pm (et) mobile_96: And Southern and the far northern part of Alabama.

8/31/2008 9:31 pm (et) Basecat: When you think on it, back then the people never got the chance to vote for a candidate. Know that occurred in all states, but just a lousy way to run a fair and impartial campaign. Would have frustrated the heck outta me knowing that my vote meant nothing in the process.

8/31/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Hey think about Babs and me. We couldn't even have voted at all back then .!!!!

8/31/2008 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Talk about frustrated !!!

8/31/2008 9:32 pm (et) Basecat: Very true.

8/31/2008 9:33 pm (et) Babs: Yeah, We just would have had to nag you about how to vote.

8/31/2008 9:33 pm (et) Susansweet: Right , Babs

8/31/2008 9:34 pm (et) mobile_96: Most women weren't even allowed to discuss politics

8/31/2008 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: I was amazed by his "brutal pace" and how he made himself so ill again

8/31/2008 9:35 pm (et) Basecat: As you know, Davis was really bothered being called a disunionist. His defense was poor IMHO, and his actions showed that even with all the fluff about being devoted to the flag etc., he was more concerned about his neck of the woods than the better interests of the entire country. Did you think from reading the book that he was a Disunionist?? My vote is yes.

8/31/2008 9:35 pm (et) Babs: Not ladylike

8/31/2008 9:36 pm (et) mobile_96: I have to agree with you Steve.

8/31/2008 9:36 pm (et) Babs: Yes, I think he was, unless he could get his way.

8/31/2008 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: Steve, if we look back from our position of knowing how things came out I would say yes. But I don't know if at the time not knowing of what was to come I would say the same thing .

8/31/2008 9:37 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...Trying not to use hindsight, but his opponents all felt he was, and they did not know what was coming either.

8/31/2008 9:38 pm (et) Basecat: In other words, am using passages from the book where many felt he was.

8/31/2008 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Said he wasn't a dis-unionist, but still kept that secession card in his back pocket.

8/31/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Well of course his opponents would say negative things about him.

8/31/2008 9:39 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Very well said, and that can't be denied.

8/31/2008 9:39 pm (et) Babs: What do he think about him resigning as senator? Was that typical if you were running for another office? Was he that confident of winning?

8/31/2008 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: There ya go I would agree with that Mobile.

8/31/2008 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...to me it shows that being Governor of a state was a more important job than being a US Senator. From the reading he was hugely disappointed losing to his rival Foote, and author used hindsight saying if the election was held a month later, he would have won...

8/31/2008 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: In Davis's eyes I should say...Mississippi was the main thing in his life. He almost got into a duel because he felt his troops in the Mexican War got a bad rap from the Senator in Illinois.

8/31/2008 9:42 pm (et) amhistoryguy: From other readings, it always struck me that there was a competitive and often hostile attitude held between State government office holders and Federal office holders from the same state.

8/31/2008 9:44 pm (et) Basecat: Dave...Very good point, and also showed a lack of any trust between those groups. Sneaky politics.

8/31/2008 9:44 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Many reps and senators reluctant to resign after their state governments seceded.

8/31/2008 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: Did he want to be governor or just beat out Foote.

8/31/2008 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: It is that thing about your state is your country more than the United States as a whole is your country .

8/31/2008 9:44 pm (et) Basecat: Any more thoughts on Jeff as Senator?

8/31/2008 9:45 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Thought on that as well, and main reason he ran, IMHO, was to beat Foote.

8/31/2008 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: And to raise his political standing . He became the most admired man since Jackson his friends were saying .

8/31/2008 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: Lets move on to Jeff as Secretary Of War, and surprisingly this is the Jeff Davis I liked. :)

8/31/2008 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: They felt he would reach the presidency Little did they know it was not of the USA.

8/31/2008 9:46 pm (et) mobile_96: Dave, where did you come across the reluctance of the Senators resigning.

8/31/2008 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Right Steve, He did many good things for the Army there.

8/31/2008 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: Camels Susan...You are up...Brief passage about them in the book, and would love to hear more about the experiment.

8/31/2008 9:48 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Reading the Globe, quite a number held off till the last minute to resign, stating their reluctance, and then hung around D.C. weeks after their state secession.

8/31/2008 9:49 pm (et) mobile_96: Thanks

8/31/2008 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: The Camels were a good idea to an extent. The only problem is the deserts of the west and the deserts of Egypt are very different. Camels had problems with the rocky soil in the west.

8/31/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: Also no one realized that Camels and horses are enemies. Horses are afraid of camels and didn't like being around them.

8/31/2008 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: Any idea how many Camels were used in this experiment?

8/31/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: That being said they did get used to deliver supplies in the California Desert.

8/31/2008 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: 22 came to California.

8/31/2008 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Hang on I can get the stats on all of them.

8/31/2008 9:51 pm (et) Babs: I think I remember an episode of Death Valley Days about them.

8/31/2008 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: No hurry...and was amused how one would teach a horse riding army soldier the intricacies of how to ride a camel. That must have been something. :)

8/31/2008 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: Babs those are urban legends

8/31/2008 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...There was also a western made about the Camels in the 1950s which starred Wayne Morris, IIRC.

8/31/2008 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: 33 camels were bought.

8/31/2008 9:54 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Mobile - James Hammond of South Carolina, "I thought MaGrath and all those fellows were great apes for resigning, and have done it myself. It is an epidemic and very foolish. It reminds me of the Japanese, who when insulted rip open their own bowels."

8/31/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Both kinds of camels were bought.

8/31/2008 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Cost 250 dollars a piece.

8/31/2008 9:55 pm (et) Basecat: That's expensive, especially for back then.

8/31/2008 9:55 pm (et) mobile_96: Guess I'm going to have to skip some books and read more of the Globe.

8/31/2008 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: Sorry 25 were brought to California.

8/31/2008 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: The fastest and best the others camels.

8/31/2008 9:55 pm (et) Basecat: Hell it's expensive in today's economy as well.

8/31/2008 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Much cost in shipping most likely

8/31/2008 9:56 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Camels get good gas mileage.

8/31/2008 9:56 pm (et) Babs: Why did they bring both kinds?

8/31/2008 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Three camels could carry as much as six mules.

8/31/2008 9:57 pm (et) Basecat: Dave, The way things are going...folks commuting to NYC on Camels with the cell phone placed on the ear the entire trip. Now that's scary. :)

8/31/2008 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: Could pull in a wagon and could cover the ground at a faster speed. Not sure why they had both kinds.

8/31/2008 9:58 pm (et) Babs: Camels and mules-- both ornery critters.

8/31/2008 9:59 pm (et) Basecat: Babs, and would tend to think they would not have gotten along with each other either.

8/31/2008 10:00 pm (et) Babs: I doubt it. I would hate to be the wrangler trying to control them.

8/31/2008 10:00 pm (et) Susansweet: Mule skinners didn't know how to train the camels . Only a couple of men understood the value of the camel and when the Civil War started they were transferred to the east . So the Cameral experiment ended.

8/31/2008 10:00 pm (et) Susansweet: They were taken to Bencia and sold at auction.

8/31/2008 10:01 pm (et) Susansweet: But they were at the Drum Barracks for 18 months during the war and were used to carry freight out into the desert to military post.

8/31/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: Floyd who succeeded Davis said the experiment was a success in 1860.

8/31/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: They actually brought camel wranglers with them from the Levant

8/31/2008 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Couple of ironic things in the section on his stint in the Cabinet. One is the feud with Winfield Scott. Talk about 2 boys who could not play well together. Found it very funny that all their correspondence was published so all could read what they wrote to each other.

8/31/2008 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks Susan. :)

8/31/2008 10:02 pm (et) Susansweet: Two are as famous as the camels. Hi Jolly and Greek George

8/31/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: But then I am way off topic.

8/31/2008 10:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Welcome Steve.

8/31/2008 10:04 pm (et) Basecat: Just an aside, but a book chat on Scott could prove to be valuable in here as well.

8/31/2008 10:05 pm (et) Babs: Basecat, I think this is an example of Davis' bullheadedness that later does so much damage to "the cause".

8/31/2008 10:06 pm (et) Babs: His friends (Johnston) were his friends and his enemies were his enemies. To hell with who might be the best man for the job.

8/31/2008 10:06 pm (et) Basecat: Babs, and the fact that Davis felt that Scott way too much credit for winning the Mexican War, as he was highly loyal to Taylor. Had no clue that Davis was the main person to make sure Scott did not receive the cushy promotion to LT. General.

8/31/2008 10:08 pm (et) Basecat: My fave story about Scott was the party that Varina held...He complained about the soup, and she told him his own cook had prepared it. Way to go Varina. :)

8/31/2008 10:08 pm (et) Susansweet: He did though institute some good changes in the Army mainly for the west.

8/31/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: Hardee's Rifle and Light infantry Tactics he had written.

8/31/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: His suggestion of a a transcontinental Railroad.

8/31/2008 10:09 pm (et) Susansweet: The curricular change at West point.

8/31/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Wonder what would have happened if the federal government had built the railroad instead of the Big Four and Credit Mobilier ?

8/31/2008 10:10 pm (et) Basecat: That's the second irony I was going to mention Susan...the changes Davis made during his time as Secretary of War. He came up with the idea to only use rifled muskets, and improvements in arty. Funny how things work out, as when the War did start, he gave the US Army many of the advances that would doom the Southern cause.

8/31/2008 10:10 pm (et) Babs: He was a busy little micromanaging bee.

8/31/2008 10:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly.

8/31/2008 10:11 pm (et) Susansweet: He saw these problems when he was a soldier in the west and knew they had to be upgraded or changed.

8/31/2008 10:11 pm (et) Susansweet: Little did he know how they would effect him and his cause later on.

8/31/2008 10:11 pm (et) mobile_96: He believed in states rights, and that the fed gov. should not pay for public improvement, but was willing to let the feds build a transcon. RR.

8/31/2008 10:12 pm (et) Basecat: As for the RR...again it was in his best interest that it should built on the Southern line. Yet again.a dichotomy..help the US, but help the South more.

8/31/2008 10:12 pm (et) Babs: Of course he wanted it through the south.

8/31/2008 10:12 pm (et) Susansweet: And approved of the Gadsden Purchase to make it happen.

8/31/2008 10:13 pm (et) mobile_96: right, probably to help move slaves further west, quickly

8/31/2008 10:13 pm (et) Susansweet: Actually that route is the best one with the least hills.

8/31/2008 10:14 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...very good point, and one I had not considered, but makes sense.

8/31/2008 10:14 pm (et) Babs: I did not know before that the Gadsden Purchase was RR related.

8/31/2008 10:14 pm (et) Susansweet: Would not have had to go over the Rockies or the Sierras if you built the southern railroad as they did finally the Santa Fe

8/31/2008 10:14 pm (et) mobile_96: Correct Babs.

8/31/2008 10:14 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, but didn't it have problems not enough water in some regions??

8/31/2008 10:16 pm (et) Basecat: Susan mentioned WP before, and also found it interesting when there was suggestions made that a like institution should be built in the south, and he disagreed with that. Hard guy to figure out at times...at least for me.

8/31/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Side bar Babs in 1976 the freedom train came to town. I was stuck in the car with the Gadsden purchase document and related material for a very long time so read it all.

8/31/2008 10:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Water would have been more of a problem Mobile.

8/31/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Davis was a total West Point man . I think he felt more than one would water it down.

8/31/2008 10:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Interesting to read about him in Last in Class .

8/31/2008 10:17 pm (et) mobile_96: Remember that from the book on the trans-cont. RR.

8/31/2008 10:18 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...I agree...and you can see how devoted he was to the Point.

8/31/2008 10:18 pm (et) Basecat: Anymore thoughts on Jeff the Secretary?

8/31/2008 10:18 pm (et) Susansweet: I find it interesting that speaking of water he wanted the Army to deal with public works in building water projects

8/31/2008 10:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Makes sense in a way as they were trained to be engineers

8/31/2008 10:20 pm (et) Basecat: Selective reasoning Susan...in terms what the US Government should participate in.

8/31/2008 10:20 pm (et) Susansweet: He had influence on other policies in Piece government too

8/31/2008 10:20 pm (et) Susansweet: Stand on Cuba, filibustering.

8/31/2008 10:21 pm (et) Basecat: Lastly, lets focus on Jeff and The Family during this time period...subtitle would be Joseph Davis was a SOB..;)

8/31/2008 10:21 pm (et) Susansweet: That is too mild a word.

8/31/2008 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: The whole thing with the new will after Jeff's son Samuel was born irked me. The no way they will get their hands on Brierfield as in Varina is so wrong. Quite disgusting.

8/31/2008 10:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Guess that sums up the topic.

8/31/2008 10:24 pm (et) Babs: There is more to this story than we are getting.

8/31/2008 10:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Joe Davis is more father than brother and always keeps the strings attached.

8/31/2008 10:25 pm (et) Basecat: Babs, wished Cooper would have delved more into it.

8/31/2008 10:26 pm (et) Babs: I think Joe and Jeff would both have a hard time getting a date with any of the gals who frequent this room.

8/31/2008 10:27 pm (et) Susansweet: But Babs I don't think Varina was a shy shrinking violet.

8/31/2008 10:27 pm (et) Susansweet: She was young and a woman of her times.

8/31/2008 10:27 pm (et) Babs: Basecat, I think maybe Copper doesn't know what the deal was.

8/31/2008 10:27 pm (et) Basecat: Joe was more my way or the highway.. and does not surprise me that he and Jeff had problems during this period. And as Susan just posted...Varina did not put up with his controlling BS.

8/31/2008 10:28 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Babs, no records so would be a guess at best.

8/31/2008 10:28 pm (et) Babs: Susan, You are right. At least that was the impression I got from the bio we read of her.

8/31/2008 10:28 pm (et) Susansweet: I really like Varina and loved the book on her.

8/31/2008 10:28 pm (et) Basecat: Babs...Could be...but he really did not offer much about the so-called feud.

8/31/2008 10:29 pm (et) Susansweet: There was a feud but there may not be much information on why there was .

8/31/2008 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: As in analysis...One of the slight problems in the book as he looks at incidents that there really is not much to go on, but he comments at length on them.

8/31/2008 10:29 pm (et) Susansweet: Or what exactly started it.

8/31/2008 10:29 pm (et) Babs: As we shall see later Jeff was dang lucky to have her or his sorry butt would still be rotting in Ft. Monroe.

8/31/2008 10:30 pm (et) Susansweet: True. I did like his observation on the Writers Project interviewing slaves of the Davis family done in the 1930's.

8/31/2008 10:31 pm (et) Susansweet: I have read many of those slave interviews, not the ones of the Davis slaves but others. They read all the same . Oh no we were treated fine , it was bad down the road at the other plantation .

8/31/2008 10:31 pm (et) Babs: Mobile, Haven't you read some of those accounts?

8/31/2008 10:31 pm (et) mobile_96: And depends on the race of the interviewer.

8/31/2008 10:32 pm (et) Babs: Cooper makes an interesting point that at the time of the interviews they still would have b een fearful of telling a white person the whole truth.

8/31/2008 10:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Babs, Yes.

8/31/2008 10:32 pm (et) Basecat: Susan...Cooper makes it read like the Davis plantations were Edens. If so, why the constant changes in Overseers?

8/31/2008 10:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Most of interviewers were white and they had a cookie cutter set of questions

8/31/2008 10:32 pm (et) Babs: Mobile makes that good point too :^)

8/31/2008 10:32 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Steve.

8/31/2008 10:33 pm (et) Susansweet: I started reading them and gave up after everyone sounded like the one before.

8/31/2008 10:33 pm (et) Basecat: Southern Whites...which to me explains the answers the slaves gave in those interviews.

8/31/2008 10:33 pm (et) mobile_96: Lots of good reading in Slave Testimony by Blassingame.

8/31/2008 10:33 pm (et) Babs: Sounds like some of those overseers disrupted Eden.

8/31/2008 10:33 pm (et) Susansweet: I would have rather seen the interviewers be given more range of questions and be educated men of color.

8/31/2008 10:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Don't know that one Mobile.

8/31/2008 10:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Many were Southern Whites , many northern out of work writers.

8/31/2008 10:34 pm (et) mobile_96: Or Eden wasn't quite the garden of paradise.

8/31/2008 10:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Wasn't even a paradise for the Davis family.

8/31/2008 10:35 pm (et) mobile_96: 700 pages, and covers material written by the slaves and former slaves.

8/31/2008 10:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile is it WPA also?

8/31/2008 10:36 pm (et) Babs: I didn't remember about that first little boy dying.

8/31/2008 10:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Varina has that in common with Mary, losing children in tragic ways.

8/31/2008 10:37 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, not a bit of the WPA, goes back as early as 1736.

8/31/2008 10:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Much better , thanks Mobile.

8/31/2008 10:37 pm (et) Basecat: You know what I thought of when reading that section about the slave interviews...The old lady in the Burns movie who recited the old poem about those times. Bothers me that many historians say that those who commented years after the war all seemed to have memory deficiencies as they grew older.

8/31/2008 10:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Diaries and letters.

8/31/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: Well the KKK was very activie in the South in the 30's .

8/31/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: I would have had selective memory too.

8/31/2008 10:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Maybe it was more like selective memory.

8/31/2008 10:38 pm (et) Babs: That bothered me too. I can remember quite clearly some things from my early childhood.

8/31/2008 10:38 pm (et) Susansweet: gmta mobile.

8/31/2008 10:39 pm (et) mobile_96: So do warped minds Susan.

8/31/2008 10:40 pm (et) Basecat: Samuel is buried in Hollywood as well...Body was moved the Cemetery in Georgetown.

8/31/2008 10:40 pm (et) Susansweet: At the time of the interviews black families were again being torn apart.

8/31/2008 10:40 pm (et) Basecat: moved from the I should say.

8/31/2008 10:40 pm (et) Susansweet: Younger members were moving to the north to big cities to find work in the factories.

8/31/2008 10:41 pm (et) Susansweet: Where in Hollywood is he ? I didn't see him in the Davis plot that I remember.

8/31/2008 10:41 pm (et) Susansweet: Loved warped minds mobile.

8/31/2008 10:41 pm (et) Basecat: BTW...Just me, or did Varina really dislike how Brierfield was built?

8/31/2008 10:42 pm (et) Basecat: Buried in the Davis plot at Hollywood Cemetery.

8/31/2008 10:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Seems like it.

8/31/2008 10:42 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought she didn't like it.

8/31/2008 10:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Hmmm have to look at photos again.

8/31/2008 10:43 pm (et) Susansweet: Oh wait you mean the son right ?

8/31/2008 10:43 pm (et) Basecat: Footnote on page 685...Yes the Son...sorry to confuse.

8/31/2008 10:43 pm (et) Susansweet: I did see that.

8/31/2008 10:43 pm (et) Susansweet: I have a picture of each grave.

8/31/2008 10:43 pm (et) mobile_96: Built for 2 separate families.

8/31/2008 10:44 pm (et) Susansweet: Hate back footnotes I forget to read them.

8/31/2008 10:44 pm (et) Basecat: Must say I have come to respect Varina quite a bit, especially with the talks given here at the RT by Joan Cashen, and by reading this book.

8/31/2008 10:45 pm (et) Susansweet: Me too and I had always thought from that one picture , the wedding one that she was a shy fading violet. She was not that.

8/31/2008 10:45 pm (et) Susansweet: I like her a lot.

8/31/2008 10:46 pm (et) Susansweet: As I have said when I visited their graves I told her I liked her best when I leaned down.

8/31/2008 10:46 pm (et) Babs: She had been quite ill before that picture was taken.

8/31/2008 10:46 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes now I know that.

8/31/2008 10:46 pm (et) Basecat: The other thought I had...almost 300 pages into the book, and we have yet to get to the CW..:)

8/31/2008 10:46 pm (et) Susansweet: Pictures can deceive.

8/31/2008 10:46 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I was indifferent to Varina before the Cashen book. I really think highly of her now.

8/31/2008 10:47 pm (et) Susansweet: That is the thing though Base, his life was more than just the Civil War.

8/31/2008 10:47 pm (et) Basecat: Dave..she loved living in NYC..Good enough for me.:)

8/31/2008 10:48 pm (et) Basecat: Susan Very true...Lots of info. to cover. Have learned quite a bit though from reading the book.

8/31/2008 10:48 pm (et) Susansweet: Import to remember too you have to study the 40's and 50's to understand what happens in the 60's . 1860's I mean.

8/31/2008 10:48 pm (et) mobile_96: Agree Susan, as Southern History is not just for 4 years of the war.

8/31/2008 10:49 pm (et) Susansweet: Actually someone asked me when the Civil War started today. I almost said with the writing of the Constitution.

8/31/2008 10:49 pm (et) Susansweet: Decided that was not the answer to give to someone visiting a reenactment.

8/31/2008 10:49 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Loved the way she turned the tables on Old Fuss & Feathers when Jeff was Sec. of War, hired HIS cook to do dinner, and waited for him to complain about the food.

8/31/2008 10:49 pm (et) mobile_96: By hindsight, you're probably right.

8/31/2008 10:49 pm (et) Susansweet: She loved a good party

8/31/2008 10:50 pm (et) Basecat: Well, we have been going on for close to 2 hours and like the IOC Chairman did last Sunday Evening. I declare that tonight's Book Chat is closed. I call for all the youth of the CW world to gather here next Sunday as we delve into Chapters 10 & 11. Thanks to all for a fine chat this evening. :)

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