Book Chat
Honor's Voice
The Transformation of Abraham Lincoln
Douglas L. Wilson

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 10/25/06 and covered The Introduction, and Chapters 6 & 7.

10/25/2006 9:11 pm (et) ks: And tonight we can finally resume our discussion of Honor’s Voice.
Chapter 6 – SPRINGFIELD!

Been there. Done that. Printed the t-shirt. I mean… ;) Discussion concerning Lincoln’s move from New Salem to Springfield is now in order!

10/25/2006 9:13 pm (et)
Widow: Local boy makes good. Also makes a fool of himself debating Stevie Douglas.

10/25/2006 9:13 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I'm pretty tired of reading, "If ______ remembered this correctly, especially when _____ doesn't.

10/25/2006 9:14 pm (et) Widow: With ya there, AHG. Speculation has to be labeled as such.

10/25/2006 9:15 pm (et) amhistoryguy: On the opening pages, Butler "recalls" that in March of 1837 Lincoln was upset at having lost his compass and horse due to debt. It happened at New Salem, in 1834, and Bill Short purchased those items from the sheriff for 81 dollars and returned them to Lincoln.

10/25/2006 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: Actually gave me a headache this afternoon AMHG. Herndon and his assumptions as facts have got me all screwed up here as well.

10/25/2006 9:15 pm (et) ks: Tends to confuse me, ahg. But once I get past the's interesting to read of LIncoln's concern for being able to pay his debts as well as his lack of comfort in the presence of women (of the Springfield variety anyway).

10/25/2006 9:15 pm (et) Widow: AHG, did you find that 1834 date in Wilson's book?

10/25/2006 9:17 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Later, Speed "recalls" that "in the spring of 1837, Lincoln took his license as a lawyer." Actually, Lincoln was granted his law license on September 9, 1836.

10/25/2006 9:17 pm (et) amhistoryguy: No, Wilson uses the 1837 date, "If Butler remembers correctly"

10/25/2006 9:17 pm (et) Widow: Ks, certainly Abe hadn't had much experience around "ladies." Not many examples in his home life or in New Salem.

10/25/2006 9:18 pm (et) ks: Well it's been shown time and again that memories are faulty, especially when they're trying to relate what happened 30+ years earlier.

10/25/2006 9:18 pm (et) Widow: Thanks, AHG. I figure that if you could find those facts, Wilson could have also. And not wasted all his time re-analyzing who forgot what and when.

10/25/2006 9:19 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Wilsons book is for all practical purposes, what folks told Herndon about Lincoln. I had hoped for a book a bit more based on what actually happened.

10/25/2006 9:19 pm (et) mobile_96: And when trying to 'protect' the "legend"

10/25/2006 9:20 pm (et) Widow: Oh, but this book is not a biography of Lincoln. Instead, it's an account of Wilson's struggle to write a biography of Lincoln. Like "Bloody Promenade."

10/25/2006 9:20 pm (et) ks: That too, mobile.

10/25/2006 9:21 pm (et) Widow: I think Wilson struggled too much and failed to write a meaningful biography.

10/25/2006 9:21 pm (et) ks: I wouldn't put it on the level of "Bloody Promenade", Widow. That's too low. ;) This has held my interest (albeit through much confusion) MUCH more that BP.

10/25/2006 9:21 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Wilson was the co editor of "Herndon's Informants," and, IMO, trying to write two books based on one set of research.

10/25/2006 9:21 pm (et) Basecat: I would not lump this with Bloody Promenade. There are some good insights, but way too many deal with the recollections of Herndon.

10/25/2006 9:22 pm (et) ks: Any thoughts on all of the info devoted to "Lincoln's melancholy"?

10/25/2006 9:22 pm (et) Widow: OK, I have the same low opinion of BP that you do. And that's where I put this Wilson thing too.

10/25/2006 9:22 pm (et) mobile_96: I don't even think it was an attempt at a bio, just an attempt to understand Lincoln in a different way than explored previously

10/25/2006 9:22 pm (et) ks: As I read this I keep thinking that in this day and age, L would have been on anti-depressants.

10/25/2006 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: Just my opinion, there really are not enough facts and Wilson is a lousy detective in trying to find evidence to support certain things. That said, in some ways it works, but in others it does not.

10/25/2006 9:23 pm (et) Widow: The melancholy pages were totally confusing. We got psychoanalysis, guesses, memories, etc. - a mishmash.

10/25/2006 9:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Only a mite better than in previous pages, and will agree with Widow, confusing.

10/25/2006 9:24 pm (et) Widow: Base, you are so right. And re the melancholy, I decided, based on all the confusion, that Lincoln MUST have a jolly giant. All else is false :))

10/25/2006 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: In terms of the melancholy, I tend to believe he hit one thing correctly on the head, as each episode seems to happen when he was emotionally and physically exhausted.

10/25/2006 9:24 pm (et) ks: Must have a Jolly Giant? I don't understand.

10/25/2006 9:25 pm (et) Widow: Sorry, ks, I meant must have BEEN jolly giant. Maybe jolly Green (as in Lincoln) giant?

10/25/2006 9:26 pm (et) amhistoryguy: No evidence to support my opinion, but I think that perhaps Lincoln was very good at hiding his true feelings, and that his "poker face" might have led folks to the notion that he was in deeper depression than he was. I certainly believe he was depressed, but I'm not certain to what degree.

10/25/2006 9:26 pm (et) Widow: Base, you're right again. He was so vulnerable. And had very little help. It's hard to struggle alone. Esp. if your brain chemsitry is at war with your heart and mind.

10/25/2006 9:27 pm (et) ks: Not sure I am getting it still, Widow. You mean...he played that role?

10/25/2006 9:27 pm (et) Basecat: Just my interpretation, he seemed to force his jocularity, to hide his feelings of depression etc. Just reading those poems he loved...That's why I am fond of the tales of Barnacle Bill the Sailor, but I digress. :)

10/25/2006 9:27 pm (et) ks: LOL Deep thinker that you are.

10/25/2006 9:28 pm (et) Widow: KS, I should have said: since all the melancholy reports were so conflicting, the opposite must have been the truth. The opposite being a jolly green giant. Sorry.

10/25/2006 9:29 pm (et) Widow: Nearly everyone looks gloomy when the face is at rest. We don't naturally go around with a smile.

10/25/2006 9:29 pm (et) mobile_96: I'm not sure I agree with him Only using it to hide depression, I think he used it all the time, because he enjoyed doing so

10/25/2006 9:29 pm (et) Widow: Maybe not gloomy, but serious. Check it in the mirror.

10/25/2006 9:30 pm (et) ks: Lincoln had a long face though. BTW related....what did you think in the museum of the examination of Lincoln's face when it was split showing both the happy and sad sides? I'd noticed the lazy eye long ago, but the split face was interesting.

10/25/2006 9:30 pm (et) Widow: Serious and solemn. But his face lit up. People remarked on it all his life.

10/25/2006 9:31 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile, which is a good point. I do feel that he overused it though when not in the right mind, if that makes sense.

10/25/2006 9:31 pm (et) ks: Yes, they did. Comments about him coming to life as if there was some inner glow were made.

10/25/2006 9:32 pm (et) Widow: I'm fascinated by how he rose politically and thereby socially in Springfield.

10/25/2006 9:32 pm (et) mobile_96: I thought so too KS, first I'd ever seen it shown like that

10/25/2006 9:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Base, it does make sense

10/25/2006 9:32 pm (et) Widow: Sounds like Washington DC, where politics is a contact sport.

10/25/2006 9:32 pm (et) amhistoryguy: The split face was very interesting - it also showed the level that examination of Lincoln and all things Lincoln has gone too. People are apt to analyze everything they can think of, and it is interesting.

10/25/2006 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: As for the chapter Springfield, Very disappointed about that, as I was hoping to learn more about when he first moved there, who he met, where he first lived etc. Really not all that much included in those pages.

10/25/2006 9:33 pm (et) amhistoryguy: If it wasn't in Herndon's papers, you won't find it in Wilson's book.

10/25/2006 9:34 pm (et) Widow: I liked the part about the young men's debating and poetry society. They were actively trying to improve their minds, or maybe just to show off to the other guys. Or both?

10/25/2006 9:34 pm (et) mobile_96: anyone read the 'note' on Sampson's Ghost?

10/25/2006 9:34 pm (et) ks: Quite a bit of Byron. ;)

10/25/2006 9:34 pm (et) Basecat: Is it just me, but do any of you feel that Abe just did not know how to relax?? Reading this, I would have told him to have a drink...

10/25/2006 9:34 pm (et) ks: Not I. I'm not too faithful with footnotes. To what are you referring , mobile?

10/25/2006 9:34 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...I did.

10/25/2006 9:35 pm (et) Basecat: Can't be proven that he actually wrote the letters.

10/25/2006 9:36 pm (et) Widow: Byron was all the rage, and for good reason. His poetry is STILL powerful.

10/25/2006 9:36 pm (et) ks: He sure seemed to be able to relax with his books, Basecat. And a drink...tend to think that would have helped exagerate his moods when he was in a "melancholy" state.

10/25/2006 9:36 pm (et) mobile_96: On page 175 Wilson says about the letters written by Sampson's Ghost,-who almost certainly was Abe Lincoln, but the footnote says: it cannot be proved and there is room for suspicion that Stuart or some other may have been behind them.

10/25/2006 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: ks...Books yes...people no. Kind of sad to read.

10/25/2006 9:36 pm (et) ks: Anything else on the Springfield chapter that you'd like to say?

10/25/2006 9:37 pm (et) amhistoryguy: In many ways, IMO, Lincoln lived life like he was in a hurry.

10/25/2006 9:37 pm (et) ks: In a hurry but with a sense of foreboding.

10/25/2006 9:37 pm (et) Basecat: Great point AMHG...and one I agree with wholeheartedly, especially at this time of his life.

10/25/2006 9:38 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Better put ks, thanks.

10/25/2006 9:38 pm (et) Widow: KS, yes, my impression too. He wanted to accomplish so much before something bad...

10/25/2006 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: And the next footnote says they are included in Lincolns Uncollected Letters, even though they cannot be confirmed as being written by Lincoln.

10/25/2006 9:38 pm (et) ks: That's confusing.

10/25/2006 9:39 pm (et) ks: Anyway, if we're ready to move on...

10/25/2006 9:39 pm (et) Basecat: Question here, as it is not mentioned in the book, but just when did Herndon and Lincoln start their law practice together?? Mentions a lot about his partnership with Stuart.

10/25/2006 9:39 pm (et) Widow: AHG, he certainly worked hard, all the traveling on the circuit, the speechifying, the writing.

10/25/2006 9:39 pm (et) ks: A fascinating chapter IMO…

Campaign & Courtship

So many tales of L’s campaigning style, his evolution in politics, his endeavors in the world of romance… And to think I didn’t (previously) know a THING about that “Log Cabin and Hard Cider” campaign. :)

 10/25/2006 9:39 pm (et) mobile_96: As is much of the book, at least the way Wilson presents everything.

10/25/2006 9:40 pm (et) ks: Or we can backtrack as needed. ;)

10/25/2006 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: Best part of the homework ks...Election of 1840...learned quite a bit from that.

10/25/2006 9:40 pm (et) Widow: Reading about the 1840 campaign, with the buttons, hats, bumper stickers, etc. Seems like we haven't improved one bit in 166 years!

10/25/2006 9:41 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, am guessing that campaign is where all that stuff started. Bothered the Democrats to no end as well.

10/25/2006 9:41 pm (et) Widow: I had no idea that the Whigs stooped to dirty tricks just to win. I'm shocked, shocked.

10/25/2006 9:41 pm (et) mobile_96: will agree that the election part was very interesting

10/25/2006 9:41 pm (et) ks: I certainly didn't realize that 1840 was the year for so many innovations with campaigning.

10/25/2006 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...That's because it was based on facts and not speculating..:)

10/25/2006 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: And the women campaigning

10/25/2006 9:42 pm (et) Widow: And Lincoln's role as a playmaker also was fascinating. He planned so much of it in Illinois.

10/25/2006 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: Good one Base.

10/25/2006 9:43 pm (et) Widow: Yes, mobile. A complete revelation to me. "Remember the ladies," as Abigail said to John.

10/25/2006 9:43 pm (et) ks: As I read the account of the speech by Edward Baker where Lincoln dropped from a trapdoor in the ceiling to defend him, I was seeing that trapdoor in the L-H Law Office and imagining. :) Also thought of the dangling arm in the cabin scene in the museum. This past weekend's sights helped me get through this chapter.

10/25/2006 9:44 pm (et) Widow: I like especially the part about the Tennessee women whose ribbons said No Whig No Husband, or something like it.

10/25/2006 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: Almost sounds like it was planned KS.

10/25/2006 9:45 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Thought the same thing, like a dramatic entrance etc.

10/25/2006 9:45 pm (et) mobile_96: Lincoln dropping down I mean.

10/25/2006 9:45 pm (et) Widow: Ks, that makes Balls Bluff all the more poignant, doesn't it?

10/25/2006 9:45 pm (et) ks: Which it most certainly would have been.

10/25/2006 9:45 pm (et) Widow: Yes, why else would he have been up there? Looking for something?

10/25/2006 9:45 pm (et) ks: Mobile, I found myself wondering what he was doing up there in the first place?!

10/25/2006 9:46 pm (et) amhistoryguy: They planned "the drop" over lunch at the wiener stand.

10/25/2006 9:46 pm (et) NJRebel: enters the chatroom.

10/25/2006 9:46 pm (et) Widow: AHG, perfect! :))

10/25/2006 9:46 pm (et) mobile_96: Same here, but maybe it was the only place he could watch the speeches

10/25/2006 9:46 pm (et) Widow: Hey, NJR. Stick around, this is getting good.

10/25/2006 9:47 pm (et) ks: "Whig husbands or none." That was it. ;) I chuckled when reading the bit about the horror of women wearing the campaign ribbons over their bosoms.

10/25/2006 9:47 pm (et) NJRebel: So what am I missing here folks?

10/25/2006 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: I was impressed...:)

10/25/2006 9:48 pm (et) NJRebel: Widow, I was looking for you on Sunday at CC

10/25/2006 9:48 pm (et) Widow: KS, Wilson alluded to the implied sexuality in the Whig campaign. Well, everyithing has a sexual aspect, but not necessarily erotic, so why was Wilsom so impressed by it?

10/25/2006 9:48 pm (et) ks: NJRebel, We're in book chat and discussing a chapter of "Honor's Voice" that dealt with the campaign of 1840.

10/25/2006 9:48 pm (et) NJRebel: oh ok

10/25/2006 9:49 pm (et) Widow: NJR, We'll chat later, OK?

10/25/2006 9:49 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, I tend to believe he made a point of it, because it really was the first time Ladies were allowed to be involved.

10/25/2006 9:49 pm (et) NJRebel: Ok Widow, bg will be on.

10/25/2006 9:49 pm (et) ks: And the involvement was encouraged only by the Whigs and not the Democrats.

10/25/2006 9:49 pm (et) NJRebel: oops

10/25/2006 9:50 pm (et) Widow: Base, again you're right. Were allowed or else said, you'd better let us in!

10/25/2006 9:50 pm (et) mobile_96: And women were never shown in any kind of sexual context.

10/25/2006 9:51 pm (et) Widow: Especially I was surprised to see that the New England ladies joined in too. Western ladies were used to thinking and acting more independently out of necessity on the frontier.

10/25/2006 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: Also really the first time any woman actually wrote a political pamphlet as well. Kinda surprising that Abe would be as involved as heavily as he was at that time, but the book clearly shows that he was, and used it to his and the party's advantage.

10/25/2006 9:51 pm (et) Widow: So the Democrats suddenly found themselves behind the times, and they lost.

10/25/2006 9:52 pm (et) NJRebel: What does the book state about women in the South???

10/25/2006 9:52 pm (et) ks: The entire idea of this campaign by the Whigs being so bizarre with the building of log cabins and handing out hard cider was intriguing. Not the type of campaign I'd have previously imagined Abe being involved with...running for that matter.

10/25/2006 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: NJR...Nothing...

10/25/2006 9:53 pm (et) mobile_96: No sectional discussion, only political party.

10/25/2006 9:53 pm (et) Widow: KS, maybe we're surprised because it doesn't match with our view of him as a good guy. Turns out he was a slick opportunist and aggressive politician.

10/25/2006 9:54 pm (et) ks: No, it doesn't, Widow.

10/25/2006 9:54 pm (et) Basecat: Also tend to think he had had it with the long Democratic rule, and would do anything to stop it.

10/25/2006 9:54 pm (et) Widow: Winning is the thing, the only thing.

10/25/2006 9:54 pm (et) mobile_96: At least at first.

10/25/2006 9:54 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Important to note that this was the beginning of a shift from voting for a person, to voting for a person in a party.

10/25/2006 9:55 pm (et) Widow: I didn't understand all the stuff about the Sub-Treasury that Van Buren was for. Or Against?

10/25/2006 9:55 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Party lines were beginning to matter more and more.

10/25/2006 9:56 pm (et) Widow: Basically I'm fuzzy about the US Bank, except that Jackson dismantled it. AHG, help me here.

10/25/2006 9:56 pm (et) ks: Nor did I, Widow. Just took away the thought that supporting the WHIG candidate/party was the overriding factor.

10/25/2006 9:58 pm (et) ks: Or if no one can explain the bank, we can talk about something even more confusing...the account of the Lincoln/Todd courtship.

10/25/2006 9:58 pm (et) Basecat: That banking stuff is something I could never get a handle on Widow.

10/25/2006 9:59 pm (et) ks: Again Wilson seemed to throw out info presenting one story, then another, and another (referring to the break-up).

10/25/2006 10:01 pm (et) Basecat: ks...More I read about that, more I could not figure out when he supposedly asked her to marry him in the first place...Had to be a written proposal, as both were not around in Springfield for quite some time when this courtship supposedly began.

10/25/2006 10:01 pm (et) ks: I found it much more satisfying to read Randall or Ross when it comes to accounts of the courtship.

10/25/2006 10:01 pm (et) mobile_96: If there was a courtship during this time.

10/25/2006 10:02 pm (et) ks: Thank you, mobile. My thoughts exactly.

10/25/2006 10:03 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Exactly...Something must have been going on, and yet again, for those in Springfield not to know, hard to believe.

10/25/2006 10:03 pm (et) ks: BTW I'm not saying that the other authors had the definitive story. But they didn't jump from account to account.

10/25/2006 10:03 pm (et) Widow: Wilson's analysis of the chronology of where each of them was - well, it was helpful in deciding how intense the courtship could have been.

10/25/2006 10:03 pm (et) mobile_96: I think Wilson should have just listed each story, complete, and walked away from it.

10/25/2006 10:04 pm (et) Basecat: How intense could it have been as they rarely saw each other?? That';s the question I have.

10/25/2006 10:04 pm (et) mobile_96: That chronology was interesting.

10/25/2006 10:04 pm (et) Widow: Or rather, could not have been. The letters from Mary to her friend Mercy don't mention the great love of Mary's life, which she certainly would have mentioned.

10/25/2006 10:04 pm (et) ks: Widow, same thing can be (and has been) said for accessing the plausibility of the Ann Rutledge story.

10/25/2006 10:05 pm (et) Widow: KS, at least Wilson did his homework on the Mary Todd business. He didn't when it came to Ann.

10/25/2006 10:05 pm (et) Basecat: Other thing I have a tough time with...allusions to Mary's expanding girth seems to have been a factor to his cooling off...IIRC, same thing was mentioned with Mary Owens.

10/25/2006 10:06 pm (et) ks: Yes, it was. Believe Mary had also lost teeth. :)

10/25/2006 10:06 pm (et) Widow: I have trouble with that, Basecat. Plumpness was considered a sign of health and beauty. Not obesity, mind you, but the full round arms and bosom, that was fashionable.

10/25/2006 10:06 pm (et) ks: Mary OWENS...pardon me.

10/25/2006 10:07 pm (et) Widow: Well, everybody had bad teeth then. That's why they didn't smile in their photographs.

10/25/2006 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: Kinda says wonders about Speed as well, as it was obvious to him Abe was taken with Mathilda, and yet he pursued her as well. So much for the Speed-Lincoln gay angle , IMHO.

10/25/2006 10:08 pm (et) Widow: Base, you rascal :))

10/25/2006 10:08 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, maybe I read that wrong, but it seems to me that Wilson went out of his way to bring that up on both occasions, in terms of his attractions to both Marys.

10/25/2006 10:09 pm (et) amhistoryguy: IIRC, there is a sign at the "Gentlemens Club" near our hotel in Springfield, that mentions Lincoln as a frequent patron.

10/25/2006 10:09 pm (et) ks: He did, Base. I thought the same thing. Perhaps Wilson has a problem with girth.

10/25/2006 10:09 pm (et) Widow: Abe had such a strong sense of behaving morally, as in getting out of debt. So he wouldn't have felt very good about dumping Mary for Matilda IF he and Mary were committed.

10/25/2006 10:10 pm (et) ks: There was a Gentleman's Club near our hotel? You're not talking Hooter either, I bet. ;)

10/25/2006 10:10 pm (et) Widow: Wilson concluded that Mary let him off. Doesn't sound like the vivacious girl who loved having lots of boyfriends.

10/25/2006 10:10 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, I don't buy it...and from reading the book, it seems to say he had no clue just how committed they were.

10/25/2006 10:11 pm (et) Widow: Base, do you mean that Wilson had no clue? Or that Abe had no clue?

10/25/2006 10:11 pm (et) Basecat: Funny thing, and I mentioned this last chat, and was alluded to tonight, Abe learned a lesson about writing to women, judging from that thank you note he sent when he was elected President..:)

10/25/2006 10:12 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, Abe had no clue just how deep he was in, IMHO.

10/25/2006 10:12 pm (et) ks: The angle I've read previously was that he broke it off out of concern that he'd not be able to make her happy. Either Ross or Randall (or both) must have gone that direction.

10/25/2006 10:12 pm (et) Widow: Mary was a sparkling charmer, with a good mind and an excellent education. He hadn't met anybody like her before. Must have fascinated and scared him at the same time.

10/25/2006 10:13 pm (et) Widow: Yes, some guys have to be told, "Buddy, you're in love, that's what's wrong with you."

10/25/2006 10:14 pm (et) Widow: She was raised to be a spoiled brat, not taught any self-discipline at all, except for her education.

10/25/2006 10:14 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, and Jackson is a fine example of that, but he did marry the girl he first loved. Abe I guess needed more convincing.

10/25/2006 10:15 pm (et) Widow: Base: Andy or Stonewall?

10/25/2006 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: Just speculating here, but I do believe Abe was attracted to her because they did share a love of poetry.

10/25/2006 10:16 pm (et) Basecat: Stonewall.

10/25/2006 10:16 pm (et) ks: Notice the description of Mary by her sister. How did Wilson phrase it "her family did not so much deny this quality (the temper) as present it in a more positive light."

10/25/2006 10:16 pm (et) ks: Poetry and Politics

10/25/2006 10:17 pm (et) Basecat: ks...Very true...Politics as well. Do believe she said she would marry a future President of the US.

10/25/2006 10:17 pm (et) Widow: A self-willed woman then would be called self-respecting today.

10/25/2006 10:18 pm (et) ks: I've always found it interesting that she'd have made that statement about marrying a future president. TEnd to wonder how she measured Lincoln and saw his potential.

10/25/2006 10:18 pm (et) Widow: It's a matter of how other people viewed her character. She was not the frail and fainting type. The temper tantrums, well, that's ugly in any era.

10/25/2006 10:18 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Judging from the bios of the first ladies exhibit we saw, Mary Todd was destined to become a first lady.

10/25/2006 10:18 pm (et) ks: Other thoughts on this chapter? Not trying to rush anyone btw.

10/25/2006 10:19 pm (et) Widow: KS, I've wondered too. It's one thing to declare your ambition. It's another to recognize when the right man qualifies.

10/25/2006 10:19 pm (et) mobile_96: maybe it was less temper tantrums than 'speaking' up for her own opinions

10/25/2006 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: ks, IMHO, she did measure his potential...Book did not outright say it, but Douglas was one of her suitors at that time also.

10/25/2006 10:19 pm (et) ks: There were many stories related in that exhibit that were new to me, ahg. Some very strong first ladies. One would have to be, I'd think.

10/25/2006 10:20 pm (et) Basecat: BTW...Am not running for President, so am grateful I will not have this problem..;)

10/25/2006 10:20 pm (et) mobile_96: it was alluded to Base

10/25/2006 10:20 pm (et) Widow: Base, yet Douglas had all the outward appearances of a man who could go to the White House. Abe had a good Whig suit and big feet.

10/25/2006 10:20 pm (et) ks: I thought the book did say that about Douglas. Perhaps it was another book.

10/25/2006 10:21 pm (et) Widow: At 21, how well could Mary judge a man's ability to make her FLOTUS?

10/25/2006 10:21 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile and ks...Yes it bad...just thought it would have been looked into more deeply.

10/25/2006 10:21 pm (et) ks: FLOTUS! Now the scrollers can wonder. ;)

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) Widow: First Lady of the United States. Married to POTUS.

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) mobile_96: mid-218

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Apparently pretty well Widow.

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) ks: Oh, I got it, Widow. I'm used to things like GGOoG and PLOoG. ;)

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) Widow: Mobile-- ??

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) Basecat: Makes me wonder if Abe went off the handle because a rival of his was vying for her attention, an angle that was not discussed.

10/25/2006 10:22 pm (et) ks: page

10/25/2006 10:23 pm (et) Widow: Now it's your turn, ks. I know who HUG is but GGOoG?

10/25/2006 10:23 pm (et) mobile_96: The Douglas mention, mid-page 218

10/25/2006 10:23 pm (et) Basecat: If ever elected here, am sure I will be referred to as FLOTSAM..;)

10/25/2006 10:24 pm (et) mobile_96: LOL

10/25/2006 10:24 pm (et) Widow: Base, I can't imagine that he would be much upset. He KNEW he had no real claim on her. He wasn't one to hold resentments either.

10/25/2006 10:24 pm (et) ks: GGOoG= General Grant Oil of Gladness (the HUG JUG presented at muster). And I now have a McCormick distillery decanter of Lincoln which I call PLOoG (President LINCOLN Oil of Gladness). :)

10/25/2006 10:25 pm (et) Widow: :)) :))

10/25/2006 10:25 pm (et) Widow: Is the GGOoG 80 proof?

10/25/2006 10:25 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Nasty rumors of their behavior at Springfield around the hot tub !!!

10/25/2006 10:25 pm (et) ks: Book states that she was trying to use other suitors to make L jealous. That whole bit about "deceiving the deceiver".

10/25/2006 10:26 pm (et) mobile_96: Not anymore Widow

10/25/2006 10:26 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, then why, according to the book did he fly off the handle, as it was intimated he was very upset by this?? Had to be more than one thing, IMHO. And as ks just alluded to...the jealousy angle.

10/25/2006 10:26 pm (et) ks: 86 proof according to the label. ;)

10/25/2006 10:26 pm (et) Widow: OK, Basecat. I guess I read it differently or missed it totally.

10/25/2006 10:27 pm (et) ks: ahg, a picture is worth a thousand words (and I hope Vickie's come out). ;)

10/25/2006 10:27 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Had Mary Todd any suitors while in KY ?

10/25/2006 10:28 pm (et) Widow: My reading of Mary's letter was that it wasn't clear whom she was trying to deceive to make jealous. It could have been any of her beaux.

10/25/2006 10:28 pm (et) Basecat: Widow...Like I speculating here, and keeping in tune with the book for of speculating..:) Just making a point.:)

10/25/2006 10:28 pm (et) ks: But didn't the material (in one of the accounts) have Mary making that "deceiver" comment to Lincoln?

10/25/2006 10:28 pm (et) Widow: This is fun. We can find and ignore as we please (or overlook), just like Wilson.

10/25/2006 10:28 pm (et) ks: I don't recall, ahg.

10/25/2006 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: ks...That she did.

10/25/2006 10:29 pm (et) Widow: I mean, me, Basecat, not you. Sorry.

10/25/2006 10:29 pm (et) ks: Are there other comments concerning tonight's read? We should probably be wrapping up.

10/25/2006 10:29 pm (et) mobile_96: Does Baker say anything about suitors in KY?

10/25/2006 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...Am sure she must have. Not too well versed on that subject though. She was a catch, and am sure she could have married who she wished to.

10/25/2006 10:30 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Difficult to draw conclusions from so much speculative material.

10/25/2006 10:30 pm (et) Widow: Yes, ks. If I ever want to read a bio of Lincoln, I'll ask this chatroom for some good titles. "Honor's Voice" ain't it, not for me.

10/25/2006 10:30 pm (et) ks: If I read anything about KY suitors in the other books here, I've forgotten. Will check before next book chat.

10/25/2006 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: Widow...The book to read, IMHO is Donald's bio. on Abe.

10/25/2006 10:31 pm (et) Widow: Thx, friend, I'll remind you when I'm back in my Lincoln mode.

10/25/2006 10:31 pm (et) ks: I'd agree that Donald is good. But I read it so long ago. Certain I'd find it more beneficial now.

10/25/2006 10:32 pm (et) Widow: Wilson is so scattershot, the loose structure makes it hard for me to trust his judgement.

10/25/2006 10:33 pm (et) ks: That will do it for tonight. Thank YOU all for participating in the book chat. Let's plan on putting this puppy to rest on Sunday, November 5th.

10/25/2006 10:33 pm (et) Basecat: Those who know me, when I find myself reading a book like this, I dance a jig when I am done reading it. Hope to be dancing on November 5th. Bout time I had some happy feet here..:)

10/25/2006 10:33 pm (et) Widow: Very good chat, all of you. Thanks for a great evening.

10/25/2006 10:33 pm (et) ks: Going to go change the banners. Also going to czech out for the night. :) Dobre noc, you all!

10/25/2006 10:34 pm (et) ks: logs off.