Book Chat
Honor's Voice
The Transformation of Abraham Lincoln
Douglas L. Wilson

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 10/15/06 and covered The Introduction, and Chapters 3, 4, & 5.

10/15/2006 9:01 pm (et) Basecat: Greetings all and welcome to the Sunday Night Book Chat. Tonight we will be discussing Chapters 3, 4, 5 of Douglas Wilson's book "Honor's Voice: The Transformation of Abraham Lincoln". In chapter 3, we find Abe finding a vocation. Comments and thoughts on the chapter?

10/15/2006 9:01 pm (et) Widow: You and I read our books straight through. I find it hard to stop after the assigned chapters.

10/15/2006 9:02 pm (et) Widow: I was especially interested in his work as a surveyor. Not an easy job to do right.

10/15/2006 9:02 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I'm disappointed in Wilson's dependence upon Herndon.

10/15/2006 9:03 pm (et) Widow: I think that Abe found the intellectual challenge, both the math and the mapping, were more his line than steering a flatboat.

10/15/2006 9:03 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, in terms of finding his vocation, you can see he was a jack of all trades, and one of the few things Abe hated in his life was farming.

10/15/2006 9:03 pm (et) Vickie: Yes, I wish he had more sources than Herndon

10/15/2006 9:03 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...I agree...way too much.

10/15/2006 9:04 pm (et) Widow: Nowadays we all try several different jobs before settling into the one we like best. But in those days, there were fewer choices.

10/15/2006 9:04 pm (et) mobile_96: Then again, what other material did he have to dig thru.

10/15/2006 9:04 pm (et) Basecat: If I wanted to read Herndon's take, I would have read his books on Abe myself. Don't need Wilson as the middle man.

10/15/2006 9:04 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Wilson mentions that Lincoln was appointed postmaster, but fails to relate how he came to be appointed, and the importance to Lincoln politically to holding the post.

10/15/2006 9:05 pm (et) Widow: Ah, that was in the movie, AHG. Ya gotta do your homework!

10/15/2006 9:05 pm (et) amhistoryguy: If Wilson only had Herndon to dig through, why write a book, tell folks to read Herndon.

10/15/2006 9:05 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, there I disagree. Abe had options that he could explore, and most certainly did. Not the high tech jobs that today are taken for granted, but nonetheless he did have choices.

10/15/2006 9:06 pm (et) Widow: Wilson also quoted from Nicolay and Hay, I think, didn't he?

10/15/2006 9:07 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Lincoln being appointed as the result of the local female population petitioning the old postmaster's removal is, IMO, important - and overlooked or ignored by Wilson.

10/15/2006 9:07 pm (et) mobile_96: But only for the time they worked for him.

10/15/2006 9:07 pm (et) Basecat: He quoted from them and others, but for the most part spends a lot of what I read relating Abe from Herndon's viewpoint.

10/15/2006 9:07 pm (et) Widow: AHG, that definitely was NOT in the movie. What, was the old guy a lecher or something?

10/15/2006 9:07 pm (et) mobile_96: Was covered by Donald's book though.

10/15/2006 9:08 pm (et) mobile_96: Widow, it appears that he really didn't want the job, so ignored people until He was ready to serve them

10/15/2006 9:08 pm (et) Widow: I'm not defending Herndon, but I had the impression he did a huge amount of research, interviewing the locals and cross-checking.

10/15/2006 9:09 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Even using Herndon is suspect, as Wilson himself pointed out - Herndon asked questions and got answers, after Lincoln's death. Herndon chose what to include or exclude from his work.

10/15/2006 9:09 pm (et) Widow: Don't all biographers and historians have to make those choices?

10/15/2006 9:09 pm (et) amhistoryguy: The old postmaster made the women wait for their mail while servind alcohol to the men.

10/15/2006 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: amhg, and IIRC Herndon only visited Abe once when he was President. Kind of a stretch IMHO.

10/15/2006 9:10 pm (et) Widow: Yes, AHG, that would tick me off to.

10/15/2006 9:10 pm (et) Widow: Herndon was still in Springfield while Abe was Pres, right?

10/15/2006 9:11 pm (et) mobile_96: From reviewing Donald's book so far, I don't find anything by Wilson that's New here.

10/15/2006 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: Widow...Main reason why there are not that many books out on Abe's younger years. Not all that much concrete info. to be had, and a lot of speculation. IMHO, Wilson wrote this book to figure out what myths were real or not real about Lincoln.

10/15/2006 9:11 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Lincoln's delivery of the mail, gave him the opportunity to meet all the folks in the community. Something I think might have been included in a book that claimed to examine the "transformation of Abraham Lincoln."

10/15/2006 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile. I agree...And Donald wrote better. :)

10/15/2006 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Widow...Yes...He was running their Law practice.

10/15/2006 9:13 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Being postmaster also gave him a free copy of The Louisville Journal and more importantly, The Washington Intelligencer, which covered Congressional sessions.

10/15/2006 9:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Wilson does talk about Lincoln meeting people from around the entire area thru his surveying

10/15/2006 9:13 pm (et) Widow: Yes, AHG, in the movie Abe hands Ann R. a letter, from her long-absent fiance. It broke her heart, so Abe talked to her. Just as you said.

10/15/2006 9:13 pm (et) Basecat: Thing I found interesting is how Lincoln was always looking for a vocation where he could leave his mark. That was important to him.

10/15/2006 9:14 pm (et) mobile_96: Thought he had that in the flatboating ventures, but those finally fell thru.

10/15/2006 9:15 pm (et) Widow: There is a difference between leaving his mark and the good-works type of vocation, such as doctor.

10/15/2006 9:16 pm (et) Widow: I meant, the difference between "I want people to remember me" and "I want to help people."

10/15/2006 9:16 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Was just gonna say that in terms of the flat boating. Kinda get the feeling that he would have done that and enjoyed doing that if it made money.

10/15/2006 9:17 pm (et) Widow: I agree, Base, what a great adventure for a young man with curiosity and a hunger to learn everything!

10/15/2006 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: I don't think it was for folks to remember what he did, but for folks to know what he did, if that makes sense. Just my thoughts on that.

10/15/2006 9:17 pm (et) Widow: He got a better idea of just how big the country is.

10/15/2006 9:18 pm (et) Widow: Base, not sure I see the difference, but we agree on the point anyway.

10/15/2006 9:19 pm (et) Widow: And of course in New Orleans he saw slave auctions. Eye-opening experience.

10/15/2006 9:19 pm (et) Widow: Maybe a little "I want to help (those) people."

10/15/2006 9:19 pm (et) Basecat: I know this is a reference from Chapter 2, but I never saw Lincoln as being lazy. It's a good point for Chapter 3, as you could tell he was just trying to find his way.

10/15/2006 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: In this part of his life, I don't think he knew just how he could help. To me, he was looking for folks to help him.

10/15/2006 9:21 pm (et) Widow: I believe most folks thought that if you weren't doing something with your hands, some tangible, visible work, you were lazy. Thinking and learning therefore would be "lazy".

10/15/2006 9:21 pm (et) amhistoryguy: That's part of what I meant previously by saying that Lincoln was not extraordinary, he had his period of time where he was trying to find his niche just like most of us, and unlike many aristocrats of the time, born into money and their future already laid out for them.

10/15/2006 9:22 pm (et) Widow: Yes, Base, of course at that stage. But the idea was in the back of his mind how appalling slavery was.

10/15/2006 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: Amhg. Exactly...and well said...and a lot better than what I typed.:)

10/15/2006 9:22 pm (et) Widow: Abe has really high IQ, brilliant-to-genius range, I'd say.

10/15/2006 9:23 pm (et) Widow: Such people have to find something to challenge themselves. He was looking for that, since he started reading.

10/15/2006 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: I don't know about that Widow. He did retain what he read and learned very well, but sort of reminds me of the way Jackson studied at West Point...reciting to himself and reading out loud many times before he moved on to other things.

10/15/2006 9:24 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Lincoln's level of common sense is more recognizable to me than his IQ

10/15/2006 9:25 pm (et) mobile_96: Good point.

10/15/2006 9:25 pm (et) Widow: Base, reciting is the best way to memorize. A boy with a wood shingle for writing HAS to memorize everything.

10/15/2006 9:25 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...that's what sticks out to me...the common sense he possessed.

10/15/2006 9:25 pm (et) Widow: He had an uncommon level of common sense :))

10/15/2006 9:26 pm (et) mobile_96: Like the case he won for that lady after being jilted

10/15/2006 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: That does not make him a genius though. To me he was an average guy trying to better his life...something I can easily relate to.

10/15/2006 9:27 pm (et) Basecat: Anything more on Chapter 3?

10/15/2006 9:27 pm (et) Widow: And I see a man with a deep intellectual hunger, grabbing for anything to read and learn.

10/15/2006 9:28 pm (et) Widow: I'm glad he mastered surveying. He learned much more than just using the instruments, etc. He learned he can work tough problems.

10/15/2006 9:28 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, I do too. Not one to compare myself to Abe, but in that way am like him. I just thank God I don't have to wear those goawd awful hats he wore..:)

10/15/2006 9:29 pm (et) Widow: Yeah, and the high-water pants with the shins showing.

10/15/2006 9:30 pm (et) Widow: On to the ladies in chapter 4?

10/15/2006 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Well, lets move on to Chapter 4...Women...

10/15/2006 9:32 pm (et) Basecat: In a way, and hate to use the Stonewall Jackson comparison again, but on this subject, they both were a lot alike as well.

10/15/2006 9:32 pm (et) Widow: Living in the cabin with Sarah and Tom, he really had very little chance to see how other women interact with their husbands and children, as well in social settings. Some observations, of course, but not regular.

10/15/2006 9:32 pm (et) Basecat: Vickie..:) It's OK.. Same thing happening here.

10/15/2006 9:33 pm (et) Widow: It's natural he would be bashful at first, afraid he would say something to embarrass them (not afraid of embarrassing himself).

10/15/2006 9:34 pm (et) Basecat: And yet he would write notes instead of just talking which to me made it more awkward for him in dealing with women.

10/15/2006 9:34 pm (et) Widow: Base, yes, and Stonewall was isolated from women during his most formative years, unlike Abe, who was already out in the world.

10/15/2006 9:34 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Another disappointment for me, is that Wilson has choosen to examine "Women," out of the context of all the other things that were going on in his life at the same time.

10/15/2006 9:35 pm (et) Widow: Oh, you mean like email and IM? People exchanged notes all the time. Rich people had their own little messenger boys to carry their notes - same as phone calls now.

10/15/2006 9:35 pm (et) Widow: AHG, was Wilson trying to write a chronological account of Lincoln's life?

10/15/2006 9:35 pm (et) amhistoryguy: He relates how bashful Lincoln was and then contradicts the image with a story about Lincoln tickling the feet - and higher up - of a girl in bed.

10/15/2006 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: Widow...Nope...I mean he got so worked up in trying to figure things out, that instead of talking he used the written word to try and figure it out, which made it more complicated, IMHO.

10/15/2006 9:36 pm (et) Widow: That one threw me, too. But, yes, I remember being curious and excited, just not in bed...:))

10/15/2006 9:37 pm (et) Widow: Writing it makes it easier to see, easier to correct, and test how it sounds.

10/15/2006 9:38 pm (et) ks: enters the chatroom.

10/15/2006 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: And arrange it in different positions

10/15/2006 9:38 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Its not about chronology Widow, it's about context. Lincoln is supposed to have been in deep grief over Rutledge, yet Wilson fails to mention the political activities Lincoln had going on at the same time. Not to mention that supposedly within a couple of months Lincoln was courting again.

10/15/2006 9:38 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome ks...we are talking about Chapter 5.

10/15/2006 9:39 pm (et) Widow: Base, did we finished chapter 4 on women?

10/15/2006 9:39 pm (et) ks: Thanks, Base. I'll do a quick scan of log so far. ICQ?

10/15/2006 9:40 pm (et) Widow: AHG, thanks for explaining that point. I hadn't considered it before.

10/15/2006 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: Sorry Chapter 4.

10/15/2006 9:43 pm (et) ks: It was tough for me to read the Rutledge info at all. I'm one of those who read and was convinced by the Randall info that the Rutledge story was something which was a romantic tale which has been much enhanced over the years. Read Wilson's info with interest, but great scepticism.

10/15/2006 9:43 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...Always thought he was in deep "grief" for her as well, and yet as you say, he had a lot of stuff on his plate at that time.

10/15/2006 9:44 pm (et) Widow: AHG, I was really surprised about that tickling story. Not that it couldn't have happened, but that he talked about it. It was, after all, mid-Victorian, and people didn't blab about their sex lives.

10/15/2006 9:44 pm (et) Basecat: Sickles did, but that's for another book chat..:)

10/15/2006 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: Nothing happens in a vacuum, ever event affects and is effected by other events

10/15/2006 9:45 pm (et) Widow: KS, I get mixed up who said what how many times, but I had the impression that Abe really sank low after Ann died. Now was that all from one source speaking to many biographers?

10/15/2006 9:46 pm (et) Widow: Base, very good :))

10/15/2006 9:47 pm (et) Widow: Or was it one biographer who got it from several sources?

10/15/2006 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: I really don't know what to believe about the Rutledge stuff...and the only thing that continues to pop up here, is that we will never know exactly just what the case was.

10/15/2006 9:48 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Rutledge died in Aug of 1835, and Wilson claims that Lincoln was courting Mary Owens shortly after that, In my mind it doesn't add up. Lincoln tramping about the countryside surveying, his political career moving forward - IMO, he probably had a crush on Rutledge, and was upset over her death, but I highly doubt he was engaged, or suicidal at her death.

10/15/2006 9:49 pm (et) ks: Widow, IIRC, the way Randall presented it was that Abe sank low because he was inclined towards melancholy and that was topped by this lovely young woman with whom he was friends taking a bad turn and dying. Randall quoted Ann's other fiance as well as other relatives supposedly not knowing a thing about a Lincoln engagement. He came to believe that it was only after Lincoln's death and the ever present desire to be somehow attached to the martyred president that the Ann Rutledge story took hold. I won't argue it. I just read the story with great doubt. Herndon was a dirty dog who seemed hell bent on hurting Mary and who loved to psychoanalyze people while twisting info to fit his hypothesis.

10/15/2006 9:49 pm (et) Widow: And, AHG, wasn't her family slightly "higher in society" than he was? So was he worshiping her from afar?

10/15/2006 9:50 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I don't believe there was a "High Society" in New Salem at that time.

10/15/2006 9:50 pm (et) Widow: KS, thanks. I've not read Randall, so your perspective is most helpful.

10/15/2006 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...I does not add up.

10/15/2006 9:51 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Rutledge's founded the town and were more wealthy than others, but I don't think that would have been a factor.

10/15/2006 9:51 pm (et) Widow: AHG, not "high," just "higher" than Abe. Surely there were people who tried to act superior in little burgs like that.

10/15/2006 9:51 pm (et) ks: AHG, that's my impression as well. New Salem had no high society whereas SPRINGFIELD on the other hand.... :)

10/15/2006 9:52 pm (et) Widow: OK, not social classes. But still, maybe Abe just admired Ann from a distance., talked to her now and then.

10/15/2006 9:52 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Couldn't tell you how the Rutledges acted, but Lincoln was highly thought of in the community.

10/15/2006 9:52 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...especially once they got to know him.

10/15/2006 9:53 pm (et) mobile_96: Donald puts it with the death of Ann bringing back to mind earlier losses, his brother Thomas, his sister Sara and above all, his mother, and with his nerves alread frayed by overwork, and too much study he fell into a depression

10/15/2006 9:54 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Put Lincoln and Rutledge in the context of Lincoln completing his first session of politics, determined to read all the Law he could get his hands on, a Rutledge - Lincoln engagement doesn't look very likely, IMO.

10/15/2006 9:54 pm (et) mobile_96: Donald appears to think there was something going on between Lincoln and Ann, but I don't see where Donald thinks the depression was only caused by Ann's death

10/15/2006 9:54 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Good points mobile.

10/15/2006 9:55 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile, and that makes a lot of sense in terms of the melancholy, and is understandable, but I tend to feel some historians focus way too much on that.

10/15/2006 9:55 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Like I said, that's why I don't like the way Wilson seperated "Women" from the context of all the other things going on in Lincoln's life.

10/15/2006 9:55 pm (et) ks: Yes, those are good points, mobile. I'd very much like to read Donald again. It's been years. Think I'd find it of even greater interest now.

10/15/2006 9:56 pm (et) Vickie: Sorry to leave but I need to get ready for work

10/15/2006 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: Another case of isolating one event without noting anything else that could bear on it

10/15/2006 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: reason I pulled Donald out, thinking about browsing thru it again also

10/15/2006 9:57 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...Am with you on that. Only got halfway thru that chapter, but thought the same thing here as well.

10/15/2006 9:57 pm (et) ks: Pardon me. I don't have a good feel for how long you've all been with the WOMEN chapter. Also I'm looking at the time. If Chapter 5 is to be discussed, ISTM moving on would be wise.

10/15/2006 9:57 pm (et) amhistoryguy: I've found "Lincoln's Preparation for Greatness, The Illinois Legislative Years," by Paul Simon, a very helpful review of Lincoln's early years.

10/15/2006 9:57 pm (et) Basecat: 27 minutes ks...:)

10/15/2006 9:58 pm (et) ks: Could you be a bit more *precise*, Basecat? ;) ;)

10/15/2006 9:58 pm (et) mobile_96: Thanks for the book note, added it to my need to buy list during the muster.

10/15/2006 9:59 pm (et) Basecat: :) Will do better next time precise wise..:)

10/15/2006 10:01 pm (et) Widow: AHG, My most recent reading about his early years was "Team of Rivals." Very helpful for a beginner in the Lincoln books.

10/15/2006 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Let's move on to Chapter 5, Politics, Politics, Politics...:)

10/15/2006 10:03 pm (et) Widow: I've never been in Illinois, and I couldn't figure out why the Sangamon county boys were working so hard fo get the capital moved to Springfield. Wilson didn't actually say that Springfield is in S. County until chap. 5. My reaction: Why didn't you say so earlier, Wilson?

10/15/2006 10:03 pm (et) amhistoryguy: In this chapter, one thing that really stood out for me, was the patience of Lincoln, begining with "Lurking" his first session of the Legislature.

10/15/2006 10:04 pm (et) amhistoryguy: This might be a further example of his common sense.

10/15/2006 10:04 pm (et) ks: Interesting to me how Lincoln felt the need to dress the part of the politician. His poor working man garb had appeal in his district, but for the state capital, just wouldn't do. The idea of him borrowing money to buy clothes was quite novel to me.

10/15/2006 10:04 pm (et) Widow: AHG, his kind of patience translates to shrewdness. Waiting to see how the wind blows.

10/15/2006 10:05 pm (et) ks: Surely would be that, AHG. Get the lay of the land. See how this legislature manuevering worked, etc.

10/15/2006 10:05 pm (et) Widow: Not in the sense of being shifty, just watching and learning the ropes.

10/15/2006 10:06 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Or knowing your limitations until you see how things work and you develop political clout.

10/15/2006 10:06 pm (et) Widow: Perzackly, AHG. And you can't have clout unless you have one of those dorky hats that Basecat loves.

10/15/2006 10:07 pm (et) Widow: And a suit to go with it.

10/15/2006 10:07 pm (et) Basecat: Dumb question here, and would have liked to look it up, but have not had the chance. Was wondering just how much he got paid while a legislator...and am with get elected and have borrow money for the right clothes struck me as well.

10/15/2006 10:08 pm (et) Widow: Base, I don't know the answer. But I don't find it surprising that a young legislator felt the need to spruce up his appearance.

10/15/2006 10:09 pm (et) Widow: Re legislative pay, my guess is that it was just enough to cover food and lodging, maybe mileage if traveling by train or stage.

10/15/2006 10:09 pm (et) Widow: But not enough to earn a living as a professional politician.

10/15/2006 10:09 pm (et) mobile_96: Sounds like a good question during the muster

10/15/2006 10:09 pm (et) ks: Nor do I find that surprising, Widow. It was Abe's having to borrow money to buy that "unmistakably Whig suit" that was the surprise here.

10/15/2006 10:09 pm (et) Widow: Or to buy a new suit.

10/15/2006 10:10 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Ask away when there.. Would like to know..:)

10/15/2006 10:10 pm (et) ks: So who's keeping track of those questions, mobile?? ;) It ain't me, babe. :-D I am EXHAUSTED, but oh SO ready to be headed on a pleasant adventure in the Land of Lincoln with such fine company. ;) Tough, but GOOD past few days here.

10/15/2006 10:10 pm (et) Widow: KS, wasn't that a great description? Like "a good rain, not a Presbyterian rain, but a solid Baptist rain."

10/15/2006 10:11 pm (et) Basecat: Just my interpretation, but while I know he wanted to win the election, I don't think he knew that he would win, hence no thought of what to do if he did win.

10/15/2006 10:11 pm (et) Widow: Is an "unmistakably Whig suit" anything like a "Republican cloth coat"?

10/15/2006 10:11 pm (et) amhistoryguy: 1835 Illinois Legislator made $ 258 dollars. Lincoln was paid this ammount after his first session ended.

10/15/2006 10:12 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks amhg.

10/15/2006 10:12 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Found that in Simon's book BTW

10/15/2006 10:12 pm (et) ks: Now that's a question I bet the NPS rangers couldn't answer, Widow. ;)

10/15/2006 10:12 pm (et) Widow: AHG, so they were paid AFTER the session. Hence the need to borrow before it began.

10/15/2006 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: Is this the Paul Simon who was a Senator from Illinois years ago?

10/15/2006 10:13 pm (et) Widow: Base, no, it's Art Garfunkel's pal.

10/15/2006 10:14 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Also Lincoln was deeply in debt, and had been sued.

10/15/2006 10:14 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Yes, Sen. Paul Simon of Illinois, former.

10/15/2006 10:15 pm (et) Widow: AHG, he was a pretty good singer for a politician.

10/15/2006 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks amhg.. Sounds like something I would like to read.

10/15/2006 10:15 pm (et) Widow: AHG, didn't Abe have a debt of $1500 regarding the store in New Salem?

10/15/2006 10:16 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Very good read. Simon was a newspaper publisher before going into politics.

10/15/2006 10:17 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Don't recall the exact amount. He also had to borrow money for surveying equipment.

10/15/2006 10:17 pm (et) Widow: AHG, it's certainly helpful to have answers from another book because Wilson left some gaps in his analysis.

10/15/2006 10:17 pm (et) mobile_96: Don't remember seeing an amount.

10/15/2006 10:18 pm (et) Widow: Oops, maybe it was in the movie. Another outside source.

10/15/2006 10:18 pm (et) Basecat: My apologies, as I did not read all the homework. Was there any mention about his participation in the Blackhawk War?

10/15/2006 10:20 pm (et) Widow: Base, the first sentence of chapter 5 says he had no actual combat.

10/15/2006 10:20 pm (et) Widow: In the movie he said the only blood he lost was to the mosquitoes.

10/15/2006 10:21 pm (et) ks: Also says that when he'd returned from the war he only had about 10 days to campaign.

10/15/2006 10:21 pm (et) Basecat: Widow, I knew that...Reason why I brought it up is, and just me, but was one of the reasons why he ran for office in the first place.

10/15/2006 10:22 pm (et) Widow: Well, yes, Base, just so you know it was a very small mention of his Blackhawk War service.

10/15/2006 10:24 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Military service is an easy way for a lazy man to make a few buck. - Said by a vet. : 0

10/15/2006 10:24 pm (et) Widow: Wilson evidently didn't think it was as big a deal as a rassling match for 20 mins.

10/15/2006 10:24 pm (et) Widow: AHG, were those Blackhawk volunteers actually paid money?

10/15/2006 10:26 pm (et) Basecat: Which surprises that to me was an important factor into folks finding out just who he was, IMHO.

10/15/2006 10:26 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Lincoln got $125 and a land grant in Iowa for his service -

10/15/2006 10:27 pm (et) Widow: I agree, Base. As a character-building experience, a 90-day enlistment is much more significant than rassling Jack Armstrong.

10/15/2006 10:27 pm (et) mobile_96: Pretty good for the length of service.

10/15/2006 10:27 pm (et) ks: A land grant in Iowa for having gone to war??

10/15/2006 10:27 pm (et) amhistoryguy: According to "Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia," by Neeley Jr.

10/15/2006 10:27 pm (et) Widow: AHG, thanks! I guess he sold it or something.

10/15/2006 10:28 pm (et) Basecat: ks...IIRC, was like a bounty offered during the CW...enticement to enlist.

10/15/2006 10:28 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Seems to me he never went to Iowa to claim the land.

10/15/2006 10:29 pm (et) ks: You seem to have quite the Lincoln resource material at hand there, AHG.

10/15/2006 10:29 pm (et) amhistoryguy: When he mustered out, In Wisconsin, he walked to Peoria, and took a canoe part way before walking the rest of the way to New Salem.

10/15/2006 10:29 pm (et) Widow: KS, AHG is answering all our questions that Wilson didn't cover.

10/15/2006 10:30 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...No he did not. Don't think he sold it either, but would have to reread about that stuff.

10/15/2006 10:30 pm (et) amhistoryguy: A good thing about the Wilson book, it sent me to other sources to find answers and to fill in Herndon's blanks.

10/15/2006 10:31 pm (et) Widow: If a land grant is like homesteading, it's not yours until you actually put some improvements on it. And you can't sell it because you haven't staked out your claim.

10/15/2006 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: amhg...Just a tough thing to wirte a book about his early life, and yet folks do. Just picked up a book Friday that just came out that deals with this time frame of his life...

10/15/2006 10:31 pm (et) ks: I appreciate your having made the effort to do so, ahg.

10/15/2006 10:32 pm (et) Widow: All Abe got was the RIGHT to stake out a claim. Not worth a nickel to him.

10/15/2006 10:33 pm (et) Basecat: Anything else on the homework for this evening??

10/15/2006 10:33 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Had Lincoln come from a more well to do family, the available sources for a history of early life would be very different.

10/15/2006 10:34 pm (et) Basecat: Amhg...Which is a very good point...All you have to do is look at the Jeff Davis story. :)

10/15/2006 10:34 pm (et) amhistoryguy: READY to go to see those Lincoln sites !!!

10/15/2006 10:34 pm (et) Widow: Or the Robert Gould Shaw story. Or the Lee story.

10/15/2006 10:34 pm (et) mobile_96: Anymore books we need to get? :-)

10/15/2006 10:35 pm (et) ks: I need to unpack and deal with some things here at home. Don't want to rush anyone though. Did we decide on a date for next week? I won't be home until Monday PM. Was Tuesday a possibility?

10/15/2006 10:35 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Bring your checkbook mobile, we'll find some I'm sure. : )

10/15/2006 10:36 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Tuesday is good for me

10/15/2006 10:36 pm (et) ks: Oh, most definitely "ME TOO!" on that one, AHG. ;) I mean on being ready to see the sites. ;)

10/15/2006 10:36 pm (et) Widow: Tuesday's fine with me, ks. Are we doing chapters 6-9?

10/15/2006 10:36 pm (et) mobile_96: Nothing to date KS.

10/15/2006 10:37 pm (et) mobile_96: Won't Vickie be gone then?

10/15/2006 10:37 pm (et) ks: Widow, I was thinking 6 and 7. That would be 62 pages. But if the consensus is for more....speak up , you all. :)

10/15/2006 10:37 pm (et) Widow: Now all you Springfield musterers, we stay-at-homes want to hear some great stories!

10/15/2006 10:38 pm (et) Basecat: Tuesday and the 2 chapters are fine with me as well.

10/15/2006 10:38 pm (et) mobile_96: Just check the police blotters, might find something there concerning book stores.

10/15/2006 10:38 pm (et) Widow: That's fine. 62 pages isn't very much, we might be able to cover chapt. 9.

10/15/2006 10:39 pm (et) mobile_96: 2 might be best, as we won't have a lot of time

10/15/2006 10:39 pm (et) Widow: Oh, mobile, I think the police blotters track the bookie stores.

10/15/2006 10:39 pm (et) ks: I agree, mobile. Given the week that's coming up and the travel, 62 pages will be plenty for me.

10/15/2006 10:39 pm (et) mobile_96: Those too Widow LOL

10/15/2006 10:40 pm (et) Widow: KS, 2 chapters it is, 6-7, next Tuesday the 24th?

10/15/2006 10:40 pm (et) mobile_96: Sounds ok to Me.

10/15/2006 10:40 pm (et) amhistoryguy: Sounds like a plan to me

10/15/2006 10:41 pm (et) Basecat: Thanks all for participating in tonight's book chat.

10/15/2006 10:41 pm (et) Basecat: Once there is definite news about the next installment, it will be posted in here and on the YODB.

10/15/2006 10:41 pm (et) Widow: These chats are really fun. Such interesting people in here. I'll be glad when we're done with Wilson.

10/15/2006 10:42 pm (et) Widow: Think I'll head on out, thanks for a great conversation, everybody. Good night.