Book Chat
"Gettysburg, The Second Day"
By
Harry W. Pfanz

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 11/13/05 and covered Chapters 9 & 10.

11/13/2005 9:06 pm (et) Basecat: Welcome to the Sunday Evening Book Chat. Tonight we focus on chapters 9 and 10 of Pfanz's Gettysburg The Second Day. We start tonight in a rather Devilish predicament the 3rd Corps finds itself in...Devil's Den.

11/13/2005 9:07 pm (et) bluelady: The one thing I get out of reading the book is that the fight in Devils den was very fierce and disorganized

11/13/2005 9:07 pm (et) Basecat: Just wanted to add, the area this chapter describes is where a lot of the tree removal on the battlefield has been done.

11/13/2005 9:08 pm (et) bluelady: Yes and it is just an awesome sight! It really makes me understand how things were able to happen the way they were described.

11/13/2005 9:09 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...to me the line that sums it up, is when Hunt rides over to check out the position held by Smith, and Hunt said...You are definitely going to lose your battery. The story about him being more scared about the cows than the incoming projectiles is also something as well.:)

11/13/2005 9:10 pm (et) bluelady: That was pretty funny but then have any of you been in the middle of a stampede before? hehe

11/13/2005 9:10 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Have to say it helped me, having seen how the lay of the land is today, when reading the homework this evening. Helped me to understand it a lot better.

11/13/2005 9:11 pm (et) Basecat: Been to NYC during Christmas time...Anything like that?? :)

11/13/2005 9:11 pm (et) bluelady: LOL Basecat...yeah that is just about right.

11/13/2005 9:12 pm (et) Basecat: Jim any thoughts on just how long the attacking Confederate line was depicted by the book??

11/13/2005 9:13 pm (et) Basecat: Also notice that at this stage of the attack...no sight of Sickles looking to see what is happening on his left.

11/13/2005 9:14 pm (et) bluelady: Now also answer this for me, from the sound, nothing was taking place in the Wheatfield or LRT yet at this point?

11/13/2005 9:15 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Not yet...You have to remember it was an attack en echelon to the left...So those units on the Confederate right started the sequence of events. In Basic terms, one regiment, went then the next one, and so on and so on.

11/13/2005 9:16 pm (et) bluelady: Right, I knew it was echelon...but I thought Law was to start it?

11/13/2005 9:16 pm (et) jimtno: To answer your question, I think about a 1/2 mile long. Remember its at least 2 brigades deep.

11/13/2005 9:17 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...He did start it but instead of veering to the left, Law's part of the charge veered towards the round tops.

11/13/2005 9:17 pm (et) jimtno: Smith's Battery is also got them in their sites for a long time. Once again, you have to see the ground. Its an eye opener.

11/13/2005 9:17 pm (et) bluelady: From the sounds Robertson started it and Law followed.

11/13/2005 9:18 pm (et) bluelady: Ok so he actually had to go further to make contact with the federals...hence the den got hit first.

11/13/2005 9:18 pm (et) Basecat: Jim makes a good point...about the veering to the right...the artillery fire from Smith's position on Devils' Den wreaked havoc in the advancing CSA lines.

11/13/2005 9:19 pm (et) jimtno: When I reread this book, that is fact that struck me. 10 lb Parrots have a very long range, longer then napoleons and also 3 inch ordinance rifles.

11/13/2005 9:19 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...For the most part yes. Terrain in front of Law's boys was even worse than the ground approaching the Den, if you can visualize that. :)

11/13/2005 9:20 pm (et) Basecat: Plus, they were using different type of ammo as the attack came closer.

11/13/2005 9:21 pm (et) jimtno: Very good point Base, 10 lb canister is different then say a napoleon's canister.

11/13/2005 9:21 pm (et) bluelady: Ok, sometimes using two different maps can be confusing.

11/13/2005 9:21 pm (et) Basecat: Jim, and just as we speculated...the caissons had to be below the summit of the Den, and that had to cause a major problem keeping each gun supplied with ammo.

11/13/2005 9:22 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...I was tongue in cheeking it there.  Ground was way worse approaching the area of the Den. Point being that Law went where at this time there were no Union soldiers in his front.

11/13/2005 9:22 pm (et) bluelady: Can you imagine trying to keep Smith supplied? It is tough walking that ground today and we aren't getting shot at!

11/13/2005 9:22 pm (et) jimtno: BTW one more thing, this is not open flat ground as some think it is. Its over ground that has been plowed, then marsh mushy ground, and the thickets.  Just awful ground to try and maintain CW combat formations.

11/13/2005 9:23 pm (et) bluelady: Like I just said Jim :)

11/13/2005 9:23 pm (et) jimtno: Yep am just slow to night. :-)

11/13/2005 9:24 pm (et) Basecat: Jim, plus IIRC, the case and shell shot used by a Parrott was quite different as well...in terms of weight etc.. Bad ammo guy here, but am guessing it was different.

11/13/2005 9:24 pm (et) bluelady: Nah...you put it in the perspective of what happened..:)

11/13/2005 9:26 pm (et) jimtno: Yes you are correct.. And they are from what I understand harder to load.

11/13/2005 9:26 pm (et) Basecat: Have to say this about Smith and his men, They knew they were in a tough spot, and yet they stayed as long as they could in that position, and no fun to be the infantry regiments sent over there to help the battery out.

11/13/2005 9:27 pm (et) jimtno: BTW, by the time Smith has to abandon his guns, ( A big no no in CW history), they have been "hot firing them". That means one gunner puts his thumb over the vent hole in the rear of the tube, they don't even swab the gun, just ram the charge home, gunner lifts his thumb off the hole and BOOM! gun fires.

11/13/2005 9:28 pm (et) bluelady: Now I am just speculating here and I don't like to deal with what ifs but this was stated a couple of weeks ago and I think bears repeating now...would the Confederates have had an easier time of it if McLaws would have continued the echelon attack into the Wheatfield before the Den fight petered out?

11/13/2005 9:28 pm (et) mobile_96: do you think Smith pulled out too soon, considering the low number of casualties he had?

11/13/2005 9:28 pm (et) Basecat: and not knowing if there is still a spark left inside the barrel, which means...kaboom of the gun itself.

11/13/2005 9:30 pm (et) jimtno: Mobile, I am one of those contrary to what I just said. They had infantry in their flank and almost in their rear.

11/13/2005 9:30 pm (et) bluelady: As far as the casualties go.. had they stuck around their casualties would have been listed as captured and not dead...and all the equipment needed to fire the guns would have been captured as well

11/13/2005 9:30 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...IMHO..it would have taken them a while to get to the Wheatfield, even while the fight at the Den petered out. That and the fact that reinforcements from the Wheatfield road were already heading towards that area, most notably, those fine strapping lads from the 6th NJ..:)

11/13/2005 9:31 pm (et) Basecat: I think they had to leave myself when they did...

11/13/2005 9:31 pm (et) jimtno: And where they were no way to fire down at the troops even though they tried., Could not elevate their guns.

11/13/2005 9:32 pm (et) jimtno: The other unit I think is worthy of discussion is the 124th NY "Orange Blossoms".

11/13/2005 9:32 pm (et) bluelady: Yep dead in the water.  Best take the things needed to fire the guns and hopefully get the guns back later.  Besides Hunt predicted he would loose them so he wasn't censured.

11/13/2005 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: Which is a good point as well...Ground is very steep in front of the position...hence the key words we have all been told countless times before...The High Ground.

11/13/2005 9:33 pm (et) bluelady: Yes, them and the 4th Maine.

11/13/2005 9:33 pm (et) Basecat: Jim...Go for it...:)

11/13/2005 9:34 pm (et) bluelady: Jim the only thing I could think of when I saw orange county was those Choppers...sorry I digress.

11/13/2005 9:35 pm (et) jimtno: They suffer 90 out of 238 dead, wounded, captured/missing.. Also the highest number of killed outright in the brigade.

11/13/2005 9:35 pm (et) jimtno: 28

11/13/2005 9:36 pm (et) jimtno: This is unit that hangs on till its got Rebs in both flanks, Smiths gunners have skeddaled.

11/13/2005 9:36 pm (et) bluelady: Talk about a hot spot in the field...no wonder people think of the triangular field as a spooky spot.

11/13/2005 9:36 pm (et) Basecat: An aside on the 4th Maine...Many in that regiment came from the same area where the 20th Maine was from, and IIRC...some were related to each other as well...and had no idea just how close they were to the 20th Maine until after the battle took place.

11/13/2005 9:36 pm (et) jimtno: And keep in mind it loses its Col and Lt Col in the action all within in minutes.

11/13/2005 9:37 pm (et) Basecat: Blue, will just add...for the most part, until the recent tree cutting, that field was really the only open area where the ghost hunters could ply their trade.

11/13/2005 9:38 pm (et) jimtno: BL, I can't imagine ordering a bayonet charge there. Smaller regiment than the 20th Maine, And yet no one talks about their efforts. Just tragic how they get ignored.

11/13/2005 9:38 pm (et) bluelady: Very true but I was thinking of the back and forth fighting in that open area.

11/13/2005 9:38 pm (et) Basecat: Anyone have thoughts on those in Gray who did the attacking?? Seems we are short changing them here with our obvious Yankee pride..:)

11/13/2005 9:39 pm (et) bluelady: Jim ..and sorry to the JLC fans out there...it helps to have a commander that is not afraid to self promote.

11/13/2005 9:39 pm (et) jimtno: I was surprised really how much confusion there was in the Grey ranks. Especially after Hood goes down.

11/13/2005 9:40 pm (et) bluelady: I wish I knew more about those men from Alabama, Arkansas and Texas. They had to have nerves of steel to make that attack.

11/13/2005 9:40 pm (et) Basecat: Jim, I think that answers your question very well...Once Hood went down, who was in charge?

11/13/2005 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: Exactly.  They say Law was...but no one knows what Law did.

11/13/2005 9:41 pm (et) jimtno: As much as Yankee fire impacts the Grey combat formations, the ground really breaks it up and causes more confusion.1/2 of brigade going one way, other half another. just a mess.

11/13/2005 9:41 pm (et) mobile_96: Does seem that everyone just 'went forward' with no one to help guide to needed areas.

11/13/2005 9:42 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...we mostly are told about the 15th Alabama, which, while a fine unit, gets the props because of who they were attacking... Those boys from Texas and Alabama to the left of Oate's position went a bit further in terms of ground they had to cover etc.

11/13/2005 9:43 pm (et) jimtno: Mobile and others, this seems to break down into a small unit action, a precursor of what will happened the following spring in the Wilderness.

11/13/2005 9:43 pm (et) mobile_96: And the 47th.

11/13/2005 9:43 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...You ask the magic question, as that is where the attack sort of breaks up on that side of the field, and in reality causes a gap in the attacking lines.

11/13/2005 9:43 pm (et) bluelady: Especially with Law's Brigade...the two Alabama regiments really got themselves turned around.

11/13/2005 9:45 pm (et) jimtno: Its also interesting how the regiments appear to get all intermingled. I think that's why this area of the battle is sometime ignored. This and the Wheatfield.

11/13/2005 9:46 pm (et) Basecat: Anything else on Devils' Den?? If not...Let's move onto the sacred ground of Little Round Top...Paging GKW...In fact Jim, you have researched this more than me, so tell all about his role in the battle at this time.

11/13/2005 9:46 pm (et) jimtno: Its so darn confusing.

11/13/2005 9:46 pm (et) bluelady: It is quite hard to understand Devil's den. I remember reading that they just fought it out instead of trying to create order.  Sound thinking IMHO.

11/13/2005 9:46 pm (et) mobile_96: Too hard to keep track of everyone?

11/13/2005 9:47 pm (et) bluelady: That is about the size of it mobile.

11/13/2005 9:47 pm (et) jimtno: Ok, here goes.

11/13/2005 9:47 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...because of the way the terrain is...yep...too hard to keep track of everybody.  Certain parts of the line could not see any of the troops on their left.

11/13/2005 9:48 pm (et) jimtno: After a great military career, mapping in the west, he basically becomes one of the fastest rising "stars" in the AOP.

11/13/2005 9:48 pm (et) mobile_96: Was there a loss of info due to no/few reports from officers?

11/13/2005 9:48 pm (et) bluelady: Drum roll for JimTNO

11/13/2005 9:48 pm (et) jimtno: Goes from being a Lt. Col. in the 5th NY to Brig Gen Chief of Engineers at Gettysburg in not quite 18 months.

11/13/2005 9:49 pm (et) jimtno: He is 33 at Gettysburg, and has turned down the Chief of Staff for Meade.

11/13/2005 9:49 pm (et) bluelady: Mobile that is a good possibility there as well as from what I read.  Law didn't write detailed reports and Hood was down.

11/13/2005 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...Main reason there were not that many reports turned in, is because of the number of officers who were killed and wounded during the fight in that area.

11/13/2005 9:50 pm (et) bluelady: And was just married about 2 weeks earlier.

11/13/2005 9:50 pm (et) bluelady: Sorry Jim.. I won't steal your thunder

11/13/2005 9:50 pm (et) Basecat: Jim...Day 2...or I will sit on that rock next week..;)

11/13/2005 9:50 pm (et) jimtno: BL right. And is madly passionately in love.

11/13/2005 9:50 pm (et) mobile_96: That's my point Base.

11/13/2005 9:51 pm (et) jimtno: Don't worry.

11/13/2005 9:51 pm (et) bluelady: LOL Basecat! hehe

11/13/2005 9:51 pm (et) Basecat: My bad Mobile...Misunderstood you then.

11/13/2005 9:52 pm (et) jimtno: Folks this guy is no "raw rookie or newbie" at Gettysburg. He is a grizzled combat vet, trusted by his commander and respected by all . And from roughly 4:30 pm to 6 pm, he will be wounded, and lose 5 very good friends, and a protégé, one Paddy O'Rourke.

11/13/2005 9:54 pm (et) bluelady: And to many he was the true savior of LRT.

11/13/2005 9:55 pm (et) jimtno: BL, I will add here. Though I am a GKW fan, I can not forget Weed, Hazlett, O'Rourke, Vincent, and Ward. Just found out about that connection this past week.

11/13/2005 9:56 pm (et) jimtno: They were all Saviors at LRT. Plus the troops of Vincent's Brigade. The WHOLE brigade.

11/13/2005 9:57 pm (et) bluelady: Nor should we ever forget what they did...Warren saw the need...Vincent took it upon himself not to wait for chain of command to go.

11/13/2005 9:57 pm (et) Basecat: As the book relates, Warren thought that Hazlett's Battery was the first to reach the top of LRT...Hopefully Jim will relate more of GKW's story of getting troops up there.

11/13/2005 9:57 pm (et) mobile_96: And the 140th NY also.

11/13/2005 9:58 pm (et) jimtno: Folks, JLC and the 20th Maine deserve their due, no doubt, but there were too many others who gave "That last full measure of devotion"

11/13/2005 9:58 pm (et) bluelady: Hazelett got the guns up there and Weed and O'Rourke were instrumental in its defense.

11/13/2005 9:58 pm (et) bluelady: Like Weed, Hazelett, Vincent and O'Rourke.

11/13/2005 9:59 pm (et) jimtno: Folks, I have tried several times to close my eyes and imagine the shock he must have felt and even a touch of panic and fear .

11/13/2005 9:59 pm (et) jimtno: How much detail folks do you want?

11/13/2005 10:00 pm (et) mobile_96: Give it your best Jim

11/13/2005 10:00 pm (et) Basecat: Jim...The small scale version...You can expound on it when at Muster in June..:)

11/13/2005 10:00 pm (et) bluelady: "His well trained eye is quick to see that this small hill, once gained by Lee, the field is lost.

11/13/2005 10:01 pm (et) jimtno: In addition to sending all of his aides off looking for help he thinks he needs. Vincent is one of the results, but Hazlett gets his guns there almost on his own initiative.

11/13/2005 10:01 pm (et) jimtno: I think the story of the meeting between Warren and O'Rourke has to be told.

11/13/2005 10:01 pm (et) jimtno: BL Thank you.

11/13/2005 10:02 pm (et) bluelady: " Intensely thrilling to my feelings, and almost appalling."

11/13/2005 10:02 pm (et) Basecat: Absolutely...and is very important to the events that took place.

11/13/2005 10:02 pm (et) jimtno: He is now getting deeply concerned. The Valley of Death is filling with Rebs, and he doesn't see nor hear Vincent's brigade because they come from the back of the his and are posted on the forward part of the hill out his sight.

11/13/2005 10:03 pm (et) Basecat: Just to add...most of the Union regiments in the Valley, are retreating as well.

11/13/2005 10:03 pm (et) Basecat: At this time.

11/13/2005 10:04 pm (et) Basecat: What is left of them I should add.

11/13/2005 10:04 pm (et) jimtno: He jumps on his horse and rides down to now what is the Wheatfield Road. He spots Weed's Brigade and who happens to be commanding the Brigade and the 140th at the time ? O'Rourke!

11/13/2005 10:05 pm (et) jimtno: What is so incredible about this is that Paddy had been a student under Warren at West Point before the war.

11/13/2005 10:06 pm (et) jimtno: Warren rides up and says "Paddy give me a regiment!". Paddy tells him he has orders to follow Barnes to the Peach Orchards.

11/13/2005 10:06 pm (et) Basecat: Paddy was a graduate of one of the classes of 1861 at the head of his class as well. One of the best young soldiers on the Union side, IMHO.

11/13/2005 10:07 pm (et) jimtno: "Warren tells him Never mind that Paddy I will take the responsibility!"  If its any one else I wonder if this happens!

11/13/2005 10:08 pm (et) bluelady: Jim I think it would have .. I mean Warren is desperate for troops because as far as he knows...just Hazlett is up there?

11/13/2005 10:08 pm (et) jimtno: Base, Warren writes in a letter that Paddy was a lovely man! Speaks of the heartbreak Warren must have felt at his lost!

11/13/2005 10:08 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...as far as Warren knows...Only Hazlett is up there at this time.

11/13/2005 10:09 pm (et) jimtno: BL, I think Vincent is there, but as Base just said Warren thinks its only Hazlett.

11/13/2005 10:09 pm (et) bluelady: Right so I think Warren would have taken responsibility for anyone...even if it wasn't Paddy

11/13/2005 10:10 pm (et) bluelady: yes but you asked if warren would have taken responsibility if it was any one other than O'Rourke.

11/13/2005 10:10 pm (et) bluelady: And because of what I just said I think he would have.

11/13/2005 10:10 pm (et) jimtno: I agree BL. But its still an interesting what if.

11/13/2005 10:11 pm (et) bluelady: Yes it is and makes a good story even better.

11/13/2005 10:11 pm (et) jimtno: BTW, one little side bar here. Despite all of his heroics, he didn't consider it his high point of his CW career.

11/13/2005 10:12 pm (et) Basecat: Jim...Day 2!!!..Sidebars later..;)

11/13/2005 10:13 pm (et) bluelady: lol basecat...keep him in line!

11/13/2005 10:13 pm (et) jimtno: I think it just shows the measure of this man.

11/13/2005 10:13 pm (et) Basecat: As for Vincent's part, at the time Paddy and GKW were talking he had gotten most of his regiment posted on the South part of LRT.

11/13/2005 10:13 pm (et) jimtno: Sorry!

11/13/2005 10:15 pm (et) bluelady: Now just to get things moving a little bit. I have to comment on how similar Oates and Chamberlain were.

11/13/2005 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: Also, on the Southern side...they do take a break to reform for the next push up that Hill.

11/13/2005 10:15 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Was gonna do the same thing, but go right ahead..:)

11/13/2005 10:16 pm (et) jimtno: One of the interesting points is that despite the heavy fighting here, Vincent's brigade only loses 26%

11/13/2005 10:16 pm (et) bluelady: Both were not professional soldiers. Both were teachers...both were IMHO very great at self promotion but JLC beat out Oates there.

11/13/2005 10:17 pm (et) bluelady: And after the war both became governors of their states.

11/13/2005 10:17 pm (et) jimtno: BL, Nice job! I didn't know that! (Must have skimmed over it).

11/13/2005 10:18 pm (et) Basecat: And both debated LRT until their dying days...ad nausem. Figures immensely into how Shaara came to write The Killer Angels. That and the fact that most of the Union Officers to the right of JLC were killed outright.

11/13/2005 10:18 pm (et) bluelady: Well the part about Governors was not in the book.. I read that elsewhere.

11/13/2005 10:19 pm (et) bluelady: And JLC outlives most of the others.

11/13/2005 10:19 pm (et) bluelady: And I was going to add that ad nausium part there Basecat.

11/13/2005 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: Some say he still lives Blue...:)

11/13/2005 10:19 pm (et) Basecat: Sorry...could not resist..:)

11/13/2005 10:20 pm (et) bluelady: LOL Basecat.

11/13/2005 10:20 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...Sorry...Someone could write a book about their post war correspondence...

11/13/2005 10:20 pm (et) jimtno: BL , The only other one in Blue who lives long enough to write about, well doesn't. GKW.

11/13/2005 10:21 pm (et) bluelady: Base.. I think somebody did!

11/13/2005 10:21 pm (et) Basecat: Time is running short here, and would like to focus on the fight at the summit.

11/13/2005 10:21 pm (et) bluelady: And I think that fact alone did not help GKW...and it is unfortunate.

11/13/2005 10:22 pm (et) bluelady: Yes...we must move on

11/13/2005 10:22 pm (et) jimtno: BL True....... So true.

11/13/2005 10:22 pm (et) jimtno: Onto the summit.

11/13/2005 10:22 pm (et) Basecat: Main reason why GKW did not write a book, he spent all of his time trying to clear his name for what happens to him in 1865.

11/13/2005 10:22 pm (et) jimtno: And the trials and tribulations of the 16th Michigan.

11/13/2005 10:23 pm (et) jimtno: More on that latter.

11/13/2005 10:23 pm (et) bluelady: Basecat....DAY 2!!!! ;)

11/13/2005 10:24 pm (et) Basecat: Point about the attacks made on that position. For something that has been written about by many different authors...each try to figure out just how many attempts were made to take the hill. The point should not be how many times, as the exact number can never be known, but should spend more on the valor on both sides who were involved in the action.

11/13/2005 10:24 pm (et) bluelady: now that area of LRT seems quite steep.  Hard to imagine much of a force coming up that slope.

11/13/2005 10:24 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...:) Sorry...Novena time..;)

11/13/2005 10:24 pm (et) Basecat: Was even steeper at the time of the fight.

11/13/2005 10:25 pm (et) jimtno: Keep in mind both sides by now are thirsty, especially those in grey!

11/13/2005 10:26 pm (et) Basecat: Was leveled off when the road was put up there, and there was also a RR track installed just below the area where the 20th Maine was as well.

11/13/2005 10:26 pm (et) bluelady: And mentioning valor...I look out and I say no way would I go...it seems as if it is certain death...but the fact remains is that the boys in Grey attacked and the boys in blue defended.

11/13/2005 10:26 pm (et) bluelady: Oh yeah I almost forgot about that RR.

11/13/2005 10:27 pm (et) bluelady: When you look at the Maine monument you think now that it wasn't much of a slope to defend against.

11/13/2005 10:27 pm (et) bluelady: But when you get to the 44th and the 16th...that was quite a slope there.

11/13/2005 10:27 pm (et) jimtno: I think the description of the fighting by Oates hits the nail on the head. The blood ran as rivers and pooled on the rocks.

11/13/2005 10:27 pm (et) Basecat: Blue...One other thing about the Oates and JLC connection...Both fought with their brother's at their side...JLC ended up the lucky one in this area, as his brother survived...Oates's brother was mortally wounded in one of the attack on the hill.

11/13/2005 10:28 pm (et) jimtno: Base, doesn't his brother die over by the left flank marker of the 20th Maine?

11/13/2005 10:28 pm (et) bluelady: oh yeah Basecat... had forgotten that one.. John Oates dies there on the hill.

11/13/2005 10:29 pm (et) Basecat: Jim...Basis of the controversy between Oates and JLC after the war...Oates wanted to put a marker for his brother there, and JLC denied that the Confederates ever got that close to his rear. Tend to go with Oates on this one.

11/13/2005 10:30 pm (et) jimtno: Can we go to the other end for a minute?

11/13/2005 10:30 pm (et) bluelady: I have to agree there as well Basecat.  I mean he had refused his line by that point surely some had made it that far.  Maybe not held it but made it nonetheless.

11/13/2005 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: Where I disagree with Oates...and as Pfanz wrote about in the book...is his claim he was already retreating when the famed attack by JLC was beginning. Reforming yes...but in retreat mode...I don't think so.

11/13/2005 10:31 pm (et) Basecat: Sure Jim...go ahead.

11/13/2005 10:32 pm (et) jimtno: The story of the 16 Mich. is interesting.

11/13/2005 10:33 pm (et) jimtno: As the battle heats up over there, during the confusion some how the colors of the 16th Mich. are seen retreating. The right 3 companies of the regiment who are under the command of its Col, in essence bug out. They are found later along with the colors in the rear drinking coffee with the 6th Corps.

11/13/2005 10:34 pm (et) Basecat: Always wondered if that guy was related to McKinley...but I digress..:)

11/13/2005 10:34 pm (et) bluelady: IIRC reading that they confused that with an order to line up with the 140th NY

11/13/2005 10:35 pm (et) jimtno: I am sorry folks these names are escaping me, but its LT Col orders two of the remaining companies to refuse their line, and the Texas boys are about to over run them but who comes to the rescue? O'Rourke and the 140th NY! Talk about timing!

11/13/2005 10:36 pm (et) jimtno: I don't want to overwhelm folks so to say the rest is history, in addition to O'Rourke losing his life.

11/13/2005 10:37 pm (et) bluelady: A hard fight for a little rocky hill in southern PA

11/13/2005 10:38 pm (et) Basecat: Folks..My apologies as there is really way too much to cover in the time we are allotted here. Know when we are on the battlefield in June, more time will be spent on discussing the various phases of the battle. Amazing to think what was read in the homework only took place in a 3 hour time period. And we have talked almost 2 hours, and have not been able to cover everything. I do hope from reading the book you are able to put the pieces together about the this part of the fight.

11/13/2005 10:38 pm (et) jimtno: By now Vincent is down after shouting to give an inch! Hit in the groin he dies a couple of days after, promoted to Brig Gen.

11/13/2005 10:39 pm (et) bluelady: Basecat, my hope is that we will have time at muster. So much to see and little time to see it

11/13/2005 10:39 pm (et) Basecat: As Jim alludes to...Paddy probably took a few steps advancing the 140th to the gap, and is killed right away.

11/13/2005 10:39 pm (et) jimtno: BL, So am I ..........

11/13/2005 10:39 pm (et) mobile_96: So is Muster all of June this time?

11/13/2005 10:40 pm (et) Basecat: Mobile...LOL...Good question...:)

11/13/2005 10:40 pm (et) jimtno: Mobile, LOL Sounds like we need it!

11/13/2005 10:40 pm (et) bluelady: lol mobile.. it might have to be! lol

11/13/2005 10:40 pm (et) Basecat: Have already started Muster 2006 here...It continues next week..;)

11/13/2005 10:40 pm (et) jimtno: By that time who knows base may live down there! LOL!

11/13/2005 10:41 pm (et) mobile_96: Not even sure that would really cover all of it.

11/13/2005 10:41 pm (et) jimtno: Mobile, I will say this. I have been down there over 30 times. Still learn something new every time.

11/13/2005 10:42 pm (et) Basecat: Really hope that for the most part all understand the gist of what is taking place...

11/13/2005 10:43 pm (et) Basecat: Homework for next week is Chapters 11 and 12..71 pages...ks has probably already posted that on the YODB.

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GO TO CHAT FOR CHAPTERS 11 & 12