Book Chat
"Perryville:
The Grand Havoc of Battle"
by
Kenneth W. NoeThis chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 05/31/09 and covered Chapters 13 & 14.
5/31/2009 9:04 pm (et) Susansweet: May 31 Perryville: This Grand Havoc of Battle by Kenneth Noe.5/31/2009 9:04 pm (et) Susansweet: Chapter 13 I Want No More Night Fighting
5/31/2009 9:04 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I've had the maps open the whole book.5/31/2009 9:04 pm (et) Susansweet: Welcome all
5/31/2009 9:05 pm (et) Susansweet: We start with Sheridan hunkered down5/31/2009 9:06 pm (et) bluelady: This section seemed to have more maps. Even with them I was still lost as to troop movements.
5/31/2009 9:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Blue that is why I started using the B and B maps they say they are based on the Noe maps but they have more information on them.5/31/2009 9:07 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: What confuses me is actual distances in regard to the height of hills and depth of ravines.
5/31/2009 9:07 pm (et) bluelady: Bed and breakfast maps? or is it Blue and Gray?5/31/2009 9:07 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Page 282. Why was Wagner not permitted to fight.
5/31/2009 9:07 pm (et) Susansweet: Me too CF.5/31/2009 9:08 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I need the linear maps but I need topographical maps too (if that is the right word.)
5/31/2009 9:08 pm (et) bluelady: CF that is correct but I think I will understand better once I get to see the field.5/31/2009 9:09 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Would love some topographical maps. That's the neat thing of being able to go there. So much of this battle was influenced by the land.
5/31/2009 9:09 pm (et) mobile_96: CivilWarAlbum.com photos might give you a better idea of the topo, or even some in my site.5/31/2009 9:09 pm (et) mobile_96: And a range finder on the trip would be helpful.
5/31/2009 9:10 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I will DEFINITELY check that out, Mobile5/31/2009 9:10 pm (et) 20thMass: Who was it that said you can't understand a battle no matter how much you have read about it until you visit the actual battlefield.
5/31/2009 9:10 pm (et) Susansweet: Not sure except it says his skirmishers arrived tolerate and it was he was not allowed to pitch into the e,5/31/2009 9:10 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I believe that.
5/31/2009 9:11 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Back to my question, pg 282, 1st paragraph. Don't understand why he was held back.5/31/2009 9:11 pm (et) bluelady: looking it up LF
5/31/2009 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: enemy with his whole brigade.5/31/2009 9:11 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: IT is best too to go at the time of the year the battle was fought to get a feel for weather conditions.
5/31/2009 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: Good idea CF.5/31/2009 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: It took me a while to realize when they were in the cornfields they were hidden. City girl here forgot Cornfields are high.
5/31/2009 9:13 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Not in October are they?5/31/2009 9:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Not harvested yet.
5/31/2009 9:13 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Depends on if they are yet harvested.5/31/2009 9:13 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Corn would be gone, but KY is further south than we are.
5/31/2009 9:14 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Regarding your question, LF... I think he still wanted to take a defensive posture.5/31/2009 9:14 pm (et) bluelady: I am thinking it might be part of the caution of his superior officers and at thins point not knowing still as to what they are facing?
5/31/2009 9:14 pm (et) 20thMass: October is harvest time unless you go way up north.5/31/2009 9:15 pm (et) bluelady: October could still be corn unharvested.
5/31/2009 9:15 pm (et) mobile_96: And remember, there was still corn standing over in front of Starkweather's hill.5/31/2009 9:15 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Weren't these tropps getting pretty tired, hot, thirsty and downright exhausted by this stage of the battle?
5/31/2009 9:15 pm (et) mobile_96: Woods was holding Wagner back.5/31/2009 9:16 pm (et) bluelady: And that corn could have been designated as ear corn...so it might be left to wait for the 1st freeze.
5/31/2009 9:16 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: What was Woods misgiving? I don't recall.5/31/2009 9:16 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, Cleburne, seems like the only one who ate all day was Buell.
5/31/2009 9:16 pm (et) mobile_96: Thirsty for sure, but they were being held in position, up to now, all the fighting was on the Union Left.5/31/2009 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Wagner wanted to pitch in with his full brigade.
5/31/2009 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: Apparently Wagner let go with some choice swear words when told he couldn't.5/31/2009 9:17 pm (et) mobile_96: Probably the men also.
5/31/2009 9:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The book just said Wood wouldn't let him, but since when, in this battle, does anyone obey commands.5/31/2009 9:18 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Ammo running low was another concern. SO many battles had thsi problem. WOnder why they didn't plan better for that eventuality.
5/31/2009 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: Seems several regiments were running low on ammo by this time.5/31/2009 9:20 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Another guy balking at that time was Sheridan.
5/31/2009 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: The confederates thought they were only going into a short skirmish, so ammo wasn't expected to be an issue.5/31/2009 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: Sheridan is watching the whole thing with his leg jumping as he sits on his horse.
5/31/2009 9:20 pm (et) mobile_96: And when they did managed to send in a load, it got captured.5/31/2009 9:20 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: He had "ague". What in heck is ague.
5/31/2009 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: "buck ague"5/31/2009 9:21 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: You have to admire Powell's troops for bravery.
5/31/2009 9:21 pm (et) mobile_96: Sheridan had already been chewed out for the fighting over water.5/31/2009 9:21 pm (et) Susansweet: fever (such as from malaria) that is marked by paroxysms of chills, fever, and sweating recurring regular intervals. Also a fit of shivering,
5/31/2009 9:21 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I admire the bravery of so many people on both sides of the battle.5/31/2009 9:22 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I would have been finding a hole to hide in.
5/31/2009 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: Poor Dan McCook trying to get Sheridan to do something to rescue his brother and his men.5/31/2009 9:23 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I pitied him at that moment.
5/31/2009 9:23 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I can't type worth a darn.5/31/2009 9:23 pm (et) mobile_96: Think Powell would have advanced like he did, if he know he was facing a Corps?
5/31/2009 9:23 pm (et) bluelady: I'm jumping up a few pages here but how about that scene where Polk and Keith faced each other ..and Polk actually used some imagination to save himself!5/31/2009 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: I kept think how it must have felt to look over and see the attack on your bother.
5/31/2009 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: That was an interesting conversation Polk had.5/31/2009 9:24 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Powell wasn't even sure he was facing infantry until he advanced.
5/31/2009 9:24 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: It was one of the few times Polk was so imaginative.5/31/2009 9:25 pm (et) bluelady: Really and actually did something.
5/31/2009 9:25 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: No, I don't Mobile.5/31/2009 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: Gilbert is a piece of work in this battle.
5/31/2009 9:25 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Susan, are you talking about the conversation with Keith. What a howl!5/31/2009 9:26 pm (et) bluelady: This whole battle no one seemed to know not only who they were facing but how many
5/31/2009 9:26 pm (et) mobile_96: Buell should have been mustered out of the US after sitting and eating all day, ignoring all the messages.5/31/2009 9:26 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Actually I thought Buell was the biggest piece of work.
5/31/2009 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Yes , Zollicoffer should have used the same imagination.5/31/2009 9:27 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree Buell and then Gilbert.
5/31/2009 9:27 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: But poor lit'l ol Buell had fallen from his horse and was sore all over.5/31/2009 9:27 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Eating and reading. Would like to read more about the Buell investigation. Maybe the last two chapters will have some info.
5/31/2009 9:27 pm (et) bluelady: I think the fall from his horse did more than he thought it did.5/31/2009 9:27 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: And Buell had gone stone, cold deaf...worst of all.
5/31/2009 9:28 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I can almost excuse the "acoustical shadow" thing, but not to at least investigate the reports he was beginning to receive was just insane.5/31/2009 9:28 pm (et) mobile_96: Don't recall there being anything in detail of the investigation.
5/31/2009 9:28 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Buell may have suffered a concussion. I bet this happened a lot more in the CW than was realized.5/31/2009 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: Page 298 has this amazing description of Liddel seeing an American Flag. It gave me goose bumps.
5/31/2009 9:28 pm (et) mobile_96: Seems he did hear some of the cannonading,5/31/2009 9:29 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yeah, I read that, Susan.
5/31/2009 9:30 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Mobile, he thought they were just "shelling the woods". Never heard of that before. To me, that would mean I was being fired upon.5/31/2009 9:30 pm (et) bluelady: Absolutely correct there CF. And I think this had to do a lot with what he thought of those under him as well. He did not trust them and he had a habit of thinking more of himself than he should as far as being superior goes...he was quite the martinet for other readings.
5/31/2009 9:30 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Liddell considered the flag a bad omen. I love stories about CW omens. It seems they happened before or during many battles.5/31/2009 9:31 pm (et) mobile_96: No, just trying to see if there are any Enemy hiding in the woods, common thru out the war.
5/31/2009 9:31 pm (et) bluelady: Sometimes they would shell the woods just to see what is there...like Warren ordered at Gettysburg from LRT.5/31/2009 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: I love what he says about "perhaps it would have been better for us to fight for our rights in the Union under the same flag."
5/31/2009 9:32 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: "Shelling the woods" refers to shelling into woods to chase out the enemy or "feel" for the enemy in there. It is usually just a probe. It doesn't signify a battle in progress. That is the excuse Buell made.5/31/2009 9:32 pm (et) bluelady: And what Mobile said.
5/31/2009 9:32 pm (et) bluelady: That was a great statement.5/31/2009 9:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, and a bit too late.
5/31/2009 9:33 pm (et) Susansweet: I can now see why the Amy of Tennessee didn't want to fight a night battle at Franklin after this one at Perryville.5/31/2009 9:33 pm (et) Susansweet: Mobile true.
5/31/2009 9:34 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: How about 92-year old Thomas Stewart - wonder how old his father was.5/31/2009 9:34 pm (et) bluelady: After Polk's little bit of inspiration he goes back to his old self and also does not allow a follow up of demoralized enemy...too. dark.
5/31/2009 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: Moving on Chapter 14 Scenes of Blood and Suffering.5/31/2009 9:35 pm (et) mobile_96: 107+?
5/31/2009 9:35 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, I couldn't believe it was over just like that. Let's just quit.5/31/2009 9:36 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Fighting in the dark increased the probability of friendly fire accidents. There had alreay been quite a few at Perryville in broad daylight.
5/31/2009 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: We get a quote from one of my favorite Confederates Sam Watkins.5/31/2009 9:36 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: This chapter haunted me for days.
5/31/2009 9:36 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I LOVE Sam Watkins.5/31/2009 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: I was reading it at a friends house all alone . It was eerie.
5/31/2009 9:37 pm (et) bluelady: Reminded me of Coco's book on the4 aftermath of Gettysburg.5/31/2009 9:37 pm (et) mobile_96: CF, wait till you read the chapter of the battle at Franklin in For Cause and For Country.
5/31/2009 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Me too . Sam always has something to say5/31/2009 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: True Mobile I have.
5/31/2009 9:38 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Noe does describe the scene very well. It lo0ks like pretty much every house had to chip in and be a hospital.5/31/2009 9:38 pm (et) Susansweet: All the suffering and then we read Buell wasn't interested in the medical side of the Army.
5/31/2009 9:38 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: This was a hard chapter to read (especially during dinner). Noe really brings the battlefield to us. Gettysburg is the closest thing I have read to this.5/31/2009 9:38 pm (et) mobile_96: But will have to say, Noe did a great job in showing the horrors of the battlefield afterwards.
5/31/2009 9:39 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Buell made the ambulances stay in the rear...as if there would be no wounds or deaths up ahead.5/31/2009 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: For Cause &For Country is very much like this too.
5/31/2009 9:39 pm (et) bluelady: Surgeons had a though time of it after a battle...no rest for hours...and the wounded had no one to take care of their needs for days.5/31/2009 9:40 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Groom describes some bad stuff in his book on Vicksburg, especially injuries to navy personnel on the boats.
5/31/2009 9:40 pm (et) bluelady: Buell only thought of one thing ..not clogging the roads...as if by the way he moved that would make a difference.5/31/2009 9:40 pm (et) bluelady: For he moved as if the roads WERE clogged.
5/31/2009 9:40 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Cleburne, I couldn't believe it when I read that. Not only left the ambulances, but the medicine and equipment.5/31/2009 9:40 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Those that survived certainly had to suffer psychological trauma.
5/31/2009 9:41 pm (et) Susansweet: and while all these men are still on the field dying Buell is still planning his grand battle for the next day.5/31/2009 9:41 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: And yet there was no name for shell shock in those days.
5/31/2009 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: Right miles ..especially if they were prisoners.5/31/2009 9:42 pm (et) bluelady: it seems that even at this point Buell still doesn't think a major battle was fought.
5/31/2009 9:42 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Did Buell EVER see the battlefield himself? Don't remember.5/31/2009 9:42 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Sometimes I think the top generals were shell shocked themselves and couldn't think rationally when faced with the horror of a battle.
5/31/2009 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Just hadn't invented the words to describe the conditions yet.5/31/2009 9:42 pm (et) 20thMass: Hooker at Chancellorsville.
5/31/2009 9:43 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: You read a lot about men who "weren't the same" after the war.5/31/2009 9:43 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Yes...did Buelel ever recognize that a major battle had happened?.
5/31/2009 9:44 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Hooker is a good example. JE Johnston, I think.5/31/2009 9:44 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I don't think he did realize that. He was still waiting for the next day so he could attack. After breakfast, of course.
5/31/2009 9:44 pm (et) mobile_96: Took him a while CF.5/31/2009 9:45 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: A man has gotta have a good breakfast.
5/31/2009 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: And even as men like Rouseau are telling him about the battle he is calm and "pretty cool about it "5/31/2009 9:46 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Hospital conditions were just barbaric then.
5/31/2009 9:46 pm (et) bluelady: Buell did not realize it until they left the field.5/31/2009 9:46 pm (et) Susansweet: Ever want to go back in history and say to someone WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!!!!
5/31/2009 9:46 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Some of the men were left for 5 days until they could be treated.5/31/2009 9:46 pm (et) bluelady: Or when his counter attack was not working...as Bragg had already left.
5/31/2009 9:47 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Then I wonder what he thought. Holly cow! How could I have been such a dork?5/31/2009 9:47 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Buell was one of the ten worst generals of the CW, IMO.
5/31/2009 9:47 pm (et) mobile_96: Susan, too many times.5/31/2009 9:47 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: That was cute how Bragg just up and left the field. The good old save your army for another day philosophy.
5/31/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Buell and Bragg both should be on the list.5/31/2009 9:47 pm (et) bluelady: lol Susan many times.
5/31/2009 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: With Pillow.5/31/2009 9:48 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yeah, well, he wasn't high enough on the list to suit me.
5/31/2009 9:48 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: The aftermath of the battle had to be severe on the local citizens.5/31/2009 9:49 pm (et) bluelady: Very sever and as I had read ahead...we will see that next week.
5/31/2009 9:50 pm (et) bluelady: I am amazed that in many battles they burial parties were able to make maps as to where they buried the dead.5/31/2009 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: I read ahead too. I had to finally put an end to the suffering .
5/31/2009 9:51 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: IT would have been the perfect time for Buell to take out Bragg's army.5/31/2009 9:51 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I was just thinking the same thing, Cleburne.
5/31/2009 9:51 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: So, why wait for him to hook up with Smith.5/31/2009 9:52 pm (et) bluelady: I was also disgusted with the treatment of the dead enemy...some units refused to bury them and left them to the hogs.
5/31/2009 9:52 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: One of many missed opportunities5/31/2009 9:52 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: They had to know by then that Smith wasn't part of the battle.
5/31/2009 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: I was crying by the time I read about the wounded woman found by the Generals.5/31/2009 9:52 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: I don't think Kirby Smith wanted to fight either, to tell the truth...even if he was from Florida.
5/31/2009 9:53 pm (et) bluelady: yeah..5/31/2009 9:53 pm (et) mobile_96: Buell still had no idea who was involved from Braggs army.
5/31/2009 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Blue but that was due to they had to bury their own first , and then they refused to bury the others because of the looting of the Union dead.5/31/2009 9:53 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Being as I am from Florida too.
5/31/2009 9:53 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The chapter had some gruesome parts. You wonder how humans could act that way toward other humans.5/31/2009 9:54 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: The enemy were dead were foten left for last and were treated badly, no marked graves, etc.
5/31/2009 9:54 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Looting was done throughout the war. Remember Fredericksburg.5/31/2009 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Yet it is repeated over and over though many more wars Fan.
5/31/2009 9:54 pm (et) bluelady: Oh I knew why Susan...and I guess I have to remember this is relatively early in the war...but looting never stopped later in the war and the dead were all eventually buried in reasonable time.5/31/2009 9:55 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Bad as it seems, looting was the one thing I did understand. Part of the spoils of war, especially when you had no weapon, no shoes, and no water.
5/31/2009 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: I know we look at it from the distance , they are in the moment.5/31/2009 9:55 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: Looting was a survival technique. That's how soldiers got their ammo resupplied and their weapons improved and their uniforms .
5/31/2009 9:56 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: ...and the other side was trying to kill you.5/31/2009 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly CF.
5/31/2009 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Good points from other Fan.5/31/2009 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: Any more comments or can we put a period to these chapters?
5/31/2009 9:57 pm (et) bluelady: And even with all of that...there still was signs of compassion so humanity wasn't totally lost.5/31/2009 9:57 pm (et) Cleburne Fan: It is horrible to imagine though...stealing shoes off a dead man, maybe one horribly disfigured.
5/31/2009 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: One more week and we finish the book then the next week is MUSTER!!!5/31/2009 9:57 pm (et) Susansweet: Next week :June 7 Chapter 15 Tramp, Tramp , Tramp and 16 The World Has Changed 40 pages to end of book.
5/31/2009 9:58 pm (et) mobile_96: Good discussion tonight