Book Chat
"Class of 1846:
From West Point to Appomattox"
John C. Waugh

This chat took place in the Civil War Home Chatroom on 03/15/09 and covered "The Dandy at the Foot of the Class" thru  the end of the book.

3/15/2009 9:00 pm (et) Susansweet: Welcome to Sunday,15 Civil War Home Chatroom Book Chat "The Class of 1846: From West Point to Appomattox : Stonewall Jackson, George McClellan and Their Brothers" by John C. Waugh  

3/15/2009 9:01 pm (et) Susansweet: Please do not use private messages during discussion .  3/15/2009 9:01 pm (et) Susansweet: Once again Waugh starts a chapter with a good opening sentence . It was a stunning midsummer morning, clear and bright and all nature in her luxuriant garb seemed wooing peace.

3/15/2009 9:02 pm (et) Susansweet: It is the 3rd of July 1863.

3/15/2009 9:02 pm (et) Susansweet: The Dandy at the Foot of the Class and we know who that is.  3/15/2009 9:03 pm (et) bluelady: Pickett was elated until about 4:00 that day. his chance for glory.  3/15/2009 9:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Well he got glory but not the kind he wanted.  

3/15/2009 9:03 pm (et) Susansweet: Blue you know Gettysburg , how is Waugh's description of the Charge ?

3/15/2009 9:03 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I have some questions for discussion, the first one being: "The enemy is there and that's where I will fight Him" hardly sounds like good strategy given the odds.

3/15/2009 9:04 pm (et) Widow: Pickett must have had lots of hairspray to keep those ringlets in the heat and humidity.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) mobile_96: Oil I think.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) mobile_96: or wax.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) secret squirrel: What did the book say, Pickett was either perfectly groomed or the opposite or something like that. So much for the curls and perfume that day.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) Babs: He didn't. The book said when the weather was bad he was disheveled.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) bluelady: I was trying to picture it as I read this part. He seems to capture it pretty good. Hill's troops did break up and Pickett's did have some crazy close quarter fighting.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) Pvt Miles: I think his description was pretty accurate.

3/15/2009 9:05 pm (et) Susansweet: I have a friend who does Pickett at reenactments. He looks so much like him it is scary at times.

3/15/2009 9:06 pm (et) Susansweet: Thanks Blue and Miles as Gettysburg is so huge and I have read so little about it .  

3/15/2009 9:06 pm (et) Susansweet: I was amazed at all the small stories he managed to get in one chapter .  

3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) Widow: The description of the artillery barrage was overwhelming. I felt like covering my ears while reading it.

3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) Susansweet: I could picture them all preparing to go .  3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) bluelady: I have to be careful because I just finished the Robertson book on Hill and I don't want to get the 2 confused.

3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) mobile_96: heard 80 miles away, had to be terrible for the men there.

3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Mahone's men didn't give much support to the charge.

3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) secret squirrel: Me too Susan, hard to imagine how deep the woods went though at that time.

3/15/2009 9:07 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Didn't the artillery start the cannonade later than scheduled?

3/15/2009 9:08 pm (et) Widow: Waugh quoted from several who were there. Their words all reflected the same reactions to the noise, smoke, confusion.

3/15/2009 9:08 pm (et) Susansweet: I have Porter Alexander's book. I must get it read.

3/15/2009 9:08 pm (et) bluelady: Those small stories tell about what the other members of the class of 46 was doing.

3/15/2009 9:09 pm (et) Babs: The noise made it very difficult to hear orders.

3/15/2009 9:09 pm (et) Susansweet: I liked the way the story flows. with statements like at about eleven o'clock the whole field suddenly fell silent. . . . the terrifying silence which in nature portends the fury of a coming storm.

3/15/2009 9:10 pm (et) cwbksell: I once made the mistake of standing within 20 feet of a cannon when it was fired. I swear the artillery men must have been deaf after the war. It was painful.

3/15/2009 9:10 pm (et) bluelady: There may have been some delay but I think it was due to some other planning and possibly Longstreet brooding.

3/15/2009 9:10 pm (et) mobile_96: Like before a tornado arrives on your door step.

3/15/2009 9:10 pm (et) secret squirrel: I think both sides must've been scared to death.

3/15/2009 9:10 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I also liked the description of the silence. As many times as I've read about this charge and walked it, this book had me spellbound when reading about it.

3/15/2009 9:11 pm (et) bluelady: cwb...did you notice all the ear horns at films of reunions? I bet they were all artillery vets.

3/15/2009 9:11 pm (et) Susansweet: I agree I was caught up in every word.

3/15/2009 9:11 pm (et) Widow: Waugh mentioned the post and rail fences along Emmitsburg road. They were build to keep the hogs out of the fields. Very hard to remove the rails, so you have to climb over the fence to continue the advance. In the face of the Yankee guns up top.

3/15/2009 9:11 pm (et) bluelady: It isn't in this book but one time during the silence a rabbit ran in front of the troops.

3/15/2009 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: Low over the scene hung a heavy pall of smoke Waugh says .

3/15/2009 9:12 pm (et) secret squirrel: I think they are called cow high, pig low or something like that.

 3/15/2009 9:12 pm (et) Babs: I believe many did suffer hearing loss. One of my ancestors pension records say his deafness was war related.

 3/15/2009 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: all that could be seen was the legs of the men hurrying about.

3/15/2009 9:12 pm (et) bluelady: One of the soldiers said run old hare run. If I was an old hare I'd run too.

3/15/2009 9:12 pm (et) Susansweet: I never thought of that when standing looking over the field that smoke would have covered everything.

3/15/2009 9:13 pm (et) mobile_96: Weren't those dutch fences, with posts dug into the ground?

3/15/2009 9:13 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Blue, I remember Shelby Foote telling that on the Ken Burns series.

3/15/2009 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: I have heard that rabbit story.

3/15/2009 9:13 pm (et) cwbksell: One Confederate saw the rabbit and said, "Run rabbit, run. If I were a rabbit, I'd run too."

3/15/2009 9:13 pm (et) Susansweet: That's where I heard it thanks Fan.

3/15/2009 9:13 pm (et) bluelady: Porter had to get on his knees to see what was happening.

3/15/2009 9:14 pm (et) bluelady: That is where I first heard it but then I read it later as well.

 3/15/2009 9:14 pm (et) Widow: Black powder smoke is so dense that it's opaque. If there's no breeze to move it away, you're shooting blind.

 3/15/2009 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I was surprised to read that Longstreet put it on Porter Alexander to decide when to go or not.

 3/15/2009 9:14 pm (et) Susansweet: I was agonizing with him when reading that part of the chapter.

 3/15/2009 9:14 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yea, and Alexander didn't appreciate it either, wasn't his job.

 3/15/2009 9:15 pm (et) Widow: Alexander was surprised, too, Susan.

 3/15/2009 9:15 pm (et) secret squirrel: They even captured that in Gettysburg the movie.

 3/15/2009 9:15 pm (et) bluelady: I like how the chapter ends and many union soldiers have written about this view.

 3/15/2009 9:15 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I agonized with Pickett.

 3/15/2009 9:16 pm (et) bluelady: it was a grand sight as soldiers stepped out as if on parade. Many union soldiers just froze as they watched then just as suddenly they realized they were marching to attack them.

 3/15/2009 9:16 pm (et) Susansweet: Next Where is My Division.

 3/15/2009 9:16 pm (et) bluelady: The never saw it before and will never see it again.

 3/15/2009 9:17 pm (et) Widow: Blue, they were awestruck by the sight of those long perfect lines. It's hard for me to imagine that soldiers can admire the enemy's formations when they're advancing toward me.

 3/15/2009 9:17 pm (et) bluelady: Dead on the field.

 3/15/2009 9:17 pm (et) cwbksell: I was surprised somewhat when it seemed Pickett was so willing to go that I wonder if he never thought of what would happen to his men.

 3/15/2009 9:17 pm (et) Susansweet: It must have been some sight indeed.

 3/15/2009 9:17 pm (et) secret squirrel: They stretched for half a mile, must've been some sight.

 3/15/2009 9:18 pm (et) bluelady: For a long time Pickett had done nothing. This was his chance.

 3/15/2009 9:18 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I've only been to one big re-enactment, the 135th. Watching line after line of troops coming over the ridge, and when you think there could be no more, another line emerges. It's awesome.

 3/15/2009 9:18 pm (et) cwbksell: They have a respect for the enemy's courage in battle. I bet most those men knew what they were headed for.

 3/15/2009 9:18 pm (et) Susansweet: Only time I have seen it was in the movie.

 3/15/2009 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: One solider wrote the green grass burned the fire was so severe as they came up.

3/15/2009 9:19 pm (et) Widow: And Susan, the number of reenactors in the movie was only part of the real charge.

3/15/2009 9:19 pm (et) bluelady: on they came closing ranks as shot and shell burst around them. as they got to the fend on the road canister knocks bigger holes in their lines

3/15/2009 9:19 pm (et) Susansweet: I never thought of that before that the grass would have burned from all firing .

3/15/2009 9:20 pm (et) bluelady: the Vermonters saw their chance to flank them as they marched to the wall and did.

3/15/2009 9:20 pm (et) Widow: Most of those guys had been through the fires at Chancellorsville. They must have thought, oh, no, not again!

3/15/2009 9:20 pm (et) Susansweet: Once again Longstreet has the good line. Freemantle says I wouldn't have missed this for anything and Longstreet says the Devil you wouldn't . I would liked to have missed it very much.

3/15/2009 9:21 pm (et) secret squirrel: but at least they weren't burning in the woods like the wilderness.

3/15/2009 9:21 pm (et) mobile_96: a car can burn the grass under if, if the engine is left running for a while.

3/15/2009 9:21 pm (et) bluelady: Armistead made it over the wall trying to turn one of Cushing's guns around he was mortally wounded. Garnett, proving he was no coward dies and his body was never found.

3/15/2009 9:22 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Why did Alexander authorize the charge if he knew he didn't have enough ammunition to cover the men?

3/15/2009 9:22 pm (et) cwbksell: I read one description from one who was in the back row. He said when they faced cannon shot, it produced a fine pint mist in the air. The pint was from the blood of the fellows who were in front of him. You were not only hit with metal, but blood and bone fragments as well.

3/15/2009 9:22 pm (et) secret squirrel: He said if you are going to do it, do it now, he didn't exactly authorize it.

3/15/2009 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: I guess he felt that at that point he had to.

3/15/2009 9:22 pm (et) Susansweet: right Pam. He left an opening in his statement.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) secret squirrel: And smart to do it too.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) bluelady: Alexander did not authorize it. He told Longstreet his dilemma and Longstreet had to order it to go because Lee had so ordered.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: by the way I read the other day they think they have finally found a true photo of Garnett.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I never knew they actually had turned the cannon around.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) Widow: Fan, Alexander reported to Longstreet about his ammo supplies. It was up to Longstreet, who just nodded when Pickett asked if he should commence.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) Susansweet: The ones that they have said were him in the past were his cousin.

3/15/2009 9:23 pm (et) bluelady: As was said he said go if you are going to go.

3/15/2009 9:24 pm (et) Susansweet: As Alexander said it wasn't really his call it was Lee's.

3/15/2009 9:24 pm (et) bluelady: I don't think they got the cannon around. I knew they were trying to.

3/15/2009 9:24 pm (et) mobile_96: Only trying to turn.

3/15/2009 9:25 pm (et) bluelady: Now here is the first place I actually read where someone saw how Garnett "got" it.

3/15/2009 9:25 pm (et) secret squirrel: Right, me too blue lady.

3/15/2009 9:25 pm (et) cwbksell: Lee knew it was his decision to go. He accepted the blame and apologized to the men as they returned. He said it was his fault.

3/15/2009 9:25 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yeah, Blue, I had never read that before.

3/15/2009 9:25 pm (et) Susansweet: That was interesting Blue , I had not read that before either but makes sense someone might have seen it but later his body wasn't found.

3/15/2009 9:26 pm (et) bluelady: Fry say canister rip into him and pull him from the saddle. It ripped open the shoulder of his horse and the horse went on back to confederate lines

3/15/2009 9:26 pm (et) Susansweet: Lee unlike others did take blame when he felt he was wrong .

3/15/2009 9:26 pm (et) secret squirrel: His horse made it back covered in blood.

3/15/2009 9:26 pm (et) Widow: Is it possible that Garnett's body was hit by a shell and blown to smithereens?

3/15/2009 9:27 pm (et) Widow: I mean, after he was off his horse?

3/15/2009 9:27 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Or was so badly mangled that it couldn't be identified?

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) bluelady: Fry said canister which is like being shot with a very big shot gun.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) secret squirrel: Susan, i am thinking of Burnside too, he took blame for his actions.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) Susansweet: The Confederates left the field . The confederate bodies were not buried right away , so the pigs might have gotten it.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) mobile_96: That much damage and you'd expect the horse to be more badly hit.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) bluelady: At that range he was probably ripped in 2.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) mobile_96: Or also killed.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) cwbksell: Cannister will do that to a body. You couldn't even tell if that was your brother or not.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) Widow: Boots, uniform, sidearms - if they were all gone, you couldn't tell the rank or name of the dead man.

3/15/2009 9:28 pm (et) secret squirrel: So horrible.

3/15/2009 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet: But the horse returned to the confederate side of the field.

3/15/2009 9:29 pm (et) Susansweet: I liked how Waugh wove all the quotes we all know into the story so they didn't sound so trite .

3/15/2009 9:30 pm (et) bluelady: Since the horse was not that damaged...I suspect Garnett took most of the there would have been extensive damage...kind of like that one body that Brady's men took .the one with the guts wide open...sorry about the description.

3/15/2009 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: Now we move on to the Meeting on the Court House Steps.

3/15/2009 9:30 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I was amazed when the book talked about some of the horsed just eating oats and not being bothered at all by the noise.

3/15/2009 9:30 pm (et) Pvt Miles: He does have a way with words.

3/15/2009 9:30 pm (et) Susansweet: It was worse than Lee imagined. It was the beginning of the end .

3/15/2009 9:30 pm (et) mobile_96: if your close enought, the canister would not be so dispersed and act like a shell.

3/15/2009 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Lee and Grant and the end of the war.

3/15/2009 9:31 pm (et) cwbksell: I noticed that as well Sue. Waugh is a great writer. I really enjoyed reading his book.

3/15/2009 9:31 pm (et) secret squirrel: Now i liked the description of lee's army being bottled up; i really could envision that.

3/15/2009 9:31 pm (et) bluelady: No but it would literally cut a big hole in you.

3/15/2009 9:31 pm (et) Susansweet: Makes me want to read another one of his books.

3/15/2009 9:32 pm (et) Widow: The events in the last week, April 2-9, touched me more deeply than the chapters about Jackson's death.

3/15/2009 9:32 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: There were some good stories in this chapter also, like Gibbon having Guild's wife protected.

3/15/2009 9:32 pm (et) Susansweet: That was a good story Fan.

3/15/2009 9:32 pm (et) mobile_96: Correct Blue, and thus mostly missing the horse, when at the Right angle.

3/15/2009 9:33 pm (et) bluelady: I have read Rhodes's memoirs and his description of that last week and finally bagging the reb was said bottled up.

3/15/2009 9:33 pm (et) Widow: I've been along the Breakthrough Trail, April 2, 1865, where AP Hill was killed. Took the tour at 5:30 a.m., it is really DARK in those woods!

3/15/2009 9:33 pm (et) Susansweet: Again I learned quite a bit about the surrender I didn't know.

3/15/2009 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: Blue did Robertson talk about Hill's death may have been suicide by army?

3/15/2009 9:34 pm (et) bluelady: What sticks with me most is how the pointers were able to leave their animosity behind and visit with their old mates as if the war were just a pause in their relationship.

3/15/2009 9:34 pm (et) Susansweet: He was so ill by that time and was seen to ride right at the other side.

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: I know that was amazing to me.

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Interesting how we keep meeting the members of the class of 46 over and over again, like neighbor Jones and Rumph.

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) bluelady: Not that I recall. Hill just got caught where he should not have been and could not get out.

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: They are standing around like a reunion at the point catching up .

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) Susansweet: They seemed to have all played a very important part in the war.

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) Widow: Susan, suicide by army - that's the first I've heard that notion. I wonder where it started.

3/15/2009 9:35 pm (et) bluelady: He does imply that Hill might not have survived much longer as it was from his ailments.

3/15/2009 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: I read that somewhere and I don't know where.

3/15/2009 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: Right.

3/15/2009 9:36 pm (et) cwbksell: Before we leave, I wanted to mention Gibbon finding a chicken "in good running order" that he shared with Hancock, Pleasanton, Newton, Meade and Col Haskell before the cannons began that afternoon. Haskell sent letters home to his brother, who had them printed in the local newspaper. It was a description of the battle. In 1910 the Wisconsin Historical Society obtained the articles and had them printed in book form. It's a classic. It's a 139 page book. I have some in stock in paper edition at $15.00 discounted for the group to $10.00 plus $2.00 S&H. If interested, send your check and I will mail it pronto.

3/15/2009 9:36 pm (et) Susansweet: He was so ill by that time.

3/15/2009 9:36 pm (et) secret squirrel: Somehow, the relationship of the soldiers on both sides doesn't amaze me. after all, these weren't foreign invaders, they were family members, friends; i think one had to detach themselves from that while fighting.

3/15/2009 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Thanks Bob. Good plug and interesting story.

3/15/2009 9:37 pm (et) bluelady: Exactly and I think it all goes back to the 4 years they spent together at the point leaning on each other for survival.

3/15/2009 9:37 pm (et) Susansweet: Interesting story I mean.

3/15/2009 9:38 pm (et) Susansweet: I found it interesting too that if the surrender was done then they planned to fire blank cartridges until they did surrender.

3/15/2009 9:38 pm (et) Susansweet: Was one plan.

3/15/2009 9:38 pm (et) bluelady: That is right Secret...they were after all Americans all.

3/15/2009 9:38 pm (et) Widow: Squirrel, maybe they felt, "He's my enemy when we're fighting. When we're not fighting, we're not enemies"? Just an idea.

3/15/2009 9:39 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: They really were a bond of brothers and would always be so, even through a civil war when they literally tried to kill each other. Reminds one of the old mob movies where the victim was told, "nothing personal".

3/15/2009 9:39 pm (et) Susansweet: Any other comments on this section ? or do we move on the The Wind that Shook the Corn.

3/15/2009 9:39 pm (et) bluelady: It is interesting to see how West point gets demonized by nay sayers. But a surrender like that at Appomattox would not have happened with out the shared education of West Point.

3/15/2009 9:39 pm (et) secret squirrel: I'm sure some had to adopt that mindset.

3/15/2009 9:40 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Exactly Blue

3/15/2009 9:40 pm (et) Widow: Good point, Blue.

3/15/2009 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: I thought this was a great way to end the book.

3/15/2009 9:40 pm (et) Susansweet: What the importance of West point was to the men.

3/15/2009 9:41 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I really loved this last chapter. It's as though this is what he wanted to tell us all along and the rest of the book was just making his case.

3/15/2009 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: Now I am about to be bereated by the fans of Jackson here.. I thought Waugh made a good point about Jackson dying too soon..

3/15/2009 9:41 pm (et) Widow: I loved that long quote from Morris Schaff about the bond that the Academy created.

3/15/2009 9:41 pm (et) Susansweet: Was a West point training a benefit or a liability.

3/15/2009 9:41 pm (et) bluelady: Would his greatness have continued later into the war had he survived?

3/15/2009 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: Not at all Blue , Fan of Jackson here but might be true he died too soon to really know what he could or could not have done.

3/15/2009 9:42 pm (et) secret squirrel: I liked the opinions of generals at the end such as Grant's on Jackson.

3/15/2009 9:42 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Waugh was right on the mark with his assessment of West Point.

3/15/2009 9:42 pm (et) Susansweet: I have head this before. Same argument for Cleburne.

3/15/2009 9:42 pm (et) mobile_96: I have to agree with you Blue.

3/15/2009 9:42 pm (et) cwbksell: I could not believe the hatred for West Point. I guess politicians have not changed over the years. Off topic, but did any of you hear that the Democrats found out that Sullenberger, who landed his plane in the Hudson River, is a Republican, and so now they are calling him a goose killer? Politics never change.

3/15/2009 9:43 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: The comparison of McClellan and Lee was excellent and I was surprised at Grant's view of Jackson. And we really don't know how well Jackson would have done as the quality of the Northern troops improved.

3/15/2009 9:43 pm (et) Widow: Blue, I figure he would have been just as erratic as before. Besides, the Federals were getting better at their job. Jackson's reputation was built on his weaker opponents.

3/15/2009 9:43 pm (et) Susansweet: Hadn't head that Bob

3/15/2009 9:43 pm (et) bluelady: I wonder because as the war went on, I am beginning to think that Jackson's habit of not sharing his thoughts would have been more of a detriment than a help.

3/15/2009 9:44 pm (et) Susansweet: The best quote was Nesmith of Oregon who says the treason is not at West Point but right there in Congress.

3/15/2009 9:44 pm (et) Widow: I agree completely, Blue.

3/15/2009 9:44 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Well, Sullenberger's goose is cooked.

3/15/2009 9:44 pm (et) secret squirrel: I tend to agree with Grant's summation of Jackson. he rose from the bottom of his class and would've have probably adapted to the war and the seasoned troops on the other side as well.

3/15/2009 9:44 pm (et) Widow: Fan :=))

3/15/2009 9:44 pm (et) bluelady: Treason was taught well before the men entered the point.

3/15/2009 9:45 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: I liked that quote Susan.

3/15/2009 9:45 pm (et) bluelady: Jackson did have that ability to adapt but he looked on thing too black and white at times and was too rigid in allowing his subordinates to adapt.

3/15/2009 9:45 pm (et) Susansweet: I also liked the comparison of Jackson and Mac.

3/15/2009 9:46 pm (et) secret squirrel: Mac was a true trip.

3/15/2009 9:46 pm (et) cwbksell: The same thing happened in regards to the cavalry. At the beginning of the war, the South rode circles around the North. (Stuart went around the Federal army twice. But as Union cavalry learned how to ride, they overtook the South. Of course by then most of the great Southern cavalry leaders were gone just like Jackson.

3/15/2009 9:46 pm (et) bluelady: Yes a great general must have the will to win whatever the mission.

3/15/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Mac looks good on paper but can't fight.

3/15/2009 9:47 pm (et) Susansweet: Jackson can fight.

3/15/2009 9:47 pm (et) Widow: Susan, where is that comparison of Jackson and Mac? I can't find it.

3/15/2009 9:47 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Yes, cw, and that's what Grant was saying. Jackson would have had a much harder time with Sheridan.

3/15/2009 9:47 pm (et) bluelady: Mac lacked moral courage.

3/15/2009 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: Even with the troops Jackson wins over Mac in the end.

3/15/2009 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: Right Blue.

3/15/2009 9:48 pm (et) secret squirrel: grant had said things were different in the beginning and mac had different challenges

3/15/2009 9:48 pm (et) Susansweet: Fan I have read that discussion many times , he might have had more trouble with Sheridan who I personally can't stand.  But who is to say . He might not have.

3/15/2009 9:48 pm (et) Widow: I think Mac was hollow inside and was afraid people would find out that he was really not up to the job.

3/15/2009 9:48 pm (et) secret squirrel: But to me he still was a trip :)

3/15/2009 9:49 pm (et) Pvt Miles: I liked Lincoln's quote that was applied to Jackson, p. 52....."He always ploughed around the log."

3/15/2009 9:49 pm (et) bluelady: Now Grant says that the Jackson would have lost to the better generals at the end of the war.

3/15/2009 9:49 pm (et) Pvt Miles: P. 520

3/15/2009 9:49 pm (et) Susansweet: Good quote Miles.

3/15/2009 9:49 pm (et) secret squirrel: If he had fought the same way.

3/15/2009 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: As Waugh says Mac had failed to fulfill the shining promise of greatness.

3/15/2009 9:50 pm (et) bluelady: Because the tactics he used were good against raw troops and inexperienced leaders.

3/15/2009 9:50 pm (et) mobile_96: Page 516 for Mac/Jackson.

3/15/2009 9:50 pm (et) secret squirrel: But let's be serious, at the end the south had run out of all resources.

3/15/2009 9:50 pm (et) Susansweet: Can't believe Mac was only 58 when he died.

3/15/2009 9:50 pm (et) Widow: Thx, Mobile.

3/15/2009 9:51 pm (et) bluelady: Looks like a heart attack.

3/15/2009 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly Pam , they were beaten , They had run out of everything , including leaders.

3/15/2009 9:51 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Of course, Jackson had the flexibility to adapt to whomever he was fighting. Who's to say he couldn't have been a match for the Union in the later years of the war.

3/15/2009 9:51 pm (et) mobile_96: Actually a couple pages Widow.

3/15/2009 9:51 pm (et) Pvt Miles: Mac took the time at the expense of opportunities.

3/15/2009 9:51 pm (et) Susansweet: Exactly my thoughts Fan.

3/15/2009 9:52 pm (et) secret squirrel: LF I agree he had NERVE.

3/15/2009 9:52 pm (et) bluelady: Angina pectoris is the medical term for chest pain or discomfort due to coronary heart disease.

3/15/2009 9:52 pm (et) Susansweet: And now we come to the end of the book the Epilogue. Waugh ties it all up nicely for us as to what happened to the members of the Class of 46.

3/15/2009 9:52 pm (et) Babs: I admire Grant but I think he may have just been trying to make his friends sound good.

3/15/2009 9:52 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: And Old Jack took the opportunities.

3/15/2009 9:53 pm (et) bluelady: Possibly babs but I would not rank Meade and Thomas as his friends.

3/15/2009 9:53 pm (et) Susansweet: Old Blue light never let an opportunity go by.

3/15/2009 9:53 pm (et) secret squirrel: He could find a weak point and exploit it.

 3/15/2009 9:53 pm (et) bluelady: Now Sherman and Sheridan yes.

 3/15/2009 9:53 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Babs, I think he had some points there that I had never heard or never thought of but that made sense.

3/15/2009 9:53 pm (et) secret squirrel: You know, these 2 didn't play either!

3/15/2009 9:54 pm (et) Susansweet: Green be the turf above thee, Friend of my better days! None knew thee but to love thee, Nor named thee but to praise .

3/15/2009 9:54 pm (et) cwbksell: The first half of the war, there were exchanges of prisoners, but then Grant said no more exchanges as he realized the South would have a difficult time replacing men where the North would never have that problem with the continuous number of imagrents coming into the North even during the war.

3/15/2009 9:55 pm (et) Susansweet: With this book I feel like I know these men a little better than I did before. Now I wish I could get out on the fields and see again what they saw .

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) secret squirrel: Me too, but I need a penknife.

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) Widow: Good comment, cwbk. But Lincoln was facing strong political opposition in 1863-64, regardless of the numbers in the army.

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) mobile_96: actually, the exchange program was mostly ended by Washington, they only asked Grants opinion on ending the exchanges.

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) bluelady: The epilogue raps up the characters.

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) Lincoln Fan: Exactly. The North was going to lose eventually as it had limited men and resources. They were running out of men and could get no further resources. Was just a matter of time.

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) Susansweet: We find out what happened to them.

3/15/2009 9:56 pm (et) cwbksell: Has it been decided what the next book will be? and I know it was mentioned we would be taking a break till after Easter, so, when do we start again? :o)

3/15/2009 9:57 pm (et) Babs: SS. The penknife to dig you a hidey hole?

3/15/2009 9:57 pm (et) bluelady: Yes Noe's book on Perryville.

3/15/2009 9:57 pm (et) secret squirrel: Hey! He didn't mention grant's death, did he??? or earlier in the book I think.

3/15/2009 9:57 pm (et) mobile_96: Bob, Noe's book on Perryville.

3/15/2009 9:57 pm (et) secret squirrel: yes a hidey hole :)

3/15/2009 9:58 pm (et) Susansweet: Next discussion will be on Kenneth Noe's book Perryville , this grand havoc of battle. This discussion will start after Easter Sunday. Watch for a reading schedule soon.

3/15/2009 9:58 pm (et) bluelady: No because this is about the class of 46 and those who were a part of that class.

3/15/2009 9:59 pm (et) Susansweet: Right the ending was what happened to class of 46 only.

3/15/2009 10:01 pm (et) Susansweet: This ends the book discussion on Waugh Class of 1846.

3/15/2009 10:02 pm (et) bluelady: Good job on moderating Susan.